Ok Bill, that does it! I am officially done believing you when you say Final Update.

;-)

I have really enjoyed your boundless enthusiasm as you share your projects., and I’ve learned a few things along the way. Thanks!

Update. :-x lol

One of the 6 Picea m. transplanted into the 511 died. Two of those are growing vigorously, one exceptionally so.

The other 3 picea appear to have set resting buds, after looking very good and continuing growth after transplant. Possibly got a little too dry? Time to experiment.

The newest Tsuga c. have progressed very well and have grown more already this season, than the ones started last year did all season long. I attribute this to better lights and more heat. :o)

90 days and no sign of Pinus banksiana seeds sprouting. Probably none viable. Could take up to 100 days for germination, so we'll give them a couple more weeks.

I still have 3 Tsuga c. that came back quite well from last years 'State champion' tree seedlings. I may start one or two in the yard this year.

I will have a few leftovers/extras from what I started last year and as soon as I see all the seedlings planted in my yard, come back from winter, I'm donating them to my son's tree project. (Sorry LED lights do funny things to camera pics, something about frequency).

Not sure what I'll do with the oaks yet. At least one is going to my other son who lives on the old place. Maybe both.

Larix laricina from broom seed hasn't missed a beat even with the early transplanting involved. Needles been increasing in length, some are 1" long. Slightly blueish in color. Trunk girth expanding.

Hopefully in a couple of weeks, I'll be putting my plants in real sun, after an acclimation period of course.

Moral of the story: Plant more seeds than you need, in case of 'catastrophe'. ;o)

Plants have been spending the last several days in unfiltered direct sun. High temp mid to high 60's. Started them at one half hour for a day or two, then went to an hour or so for a couple days, yesterday 2-1/2 hours and today a 4-5 hour exposure. They should be good for 6-8 hr full sun from now on.

Yesterday we planted the tray of seedlings and rooted cuttings in the ground on my sons place north of Brainerd. So no longer need attending to. :-)

I moved the Taxus and Pinus banksiana seed trays out to the plant table. I'll keep them watered but be less trouble and can keep them longer just to see what happens. No frost predicted and even if we do get a late frost, I can put these in the garage for a few nights. Spring has sprung!

I'm giving the 2 bicolor oaks to my son so we'll wait for a good day to go out and plant them soon. Over 21" tall on the right. The other 8 days behind.

I've been watering the tray below almost every day with fert water, just to see if I can break the Picea m. dormancy but so far, they just subsist with a dark green color and yellow buds.

The small Thuja o. has been making new growth and sprouting new branches but it is behind from what it would've been had it not been for the fiasco early on. They may stay on the outside plant table too, it's nbd.

I'll be keeping this tray of new seedlings.

Black spruce with one back up, 3 Tsuga c. seedlings from previous year and an unexpected Larch plant that has been growing in leaps and bounds. Some needles 1-1/4" long and it just keeps pushing more out the top continuously day by day.

So all in all I consider this a success bc anytime you end up with more than you started with, that's progress. :-)

This had really made me appreciate what nursery men (and women) go through to produce healthy growing plants at an affordable price and still make a living.

The lone Thuja o. survived, putting on new growth, slowly turning green and extended an arm of real growth a few days ago. Still in a 9 oz cup but plans are in the works to up-pot to a 28 oz tall tumbler cup. No hurry though.

I discarded the 3 stunted Picea mariana. Don't know why those set resting buds. Just for fun I checked the roots. They were numerous and far ranging. 3-1/2" square pot.

JFWIW: If anyone is still following this thread. :-)

One of the Bicolor oaks found it's home over on my old place last Sunday.

I didn't get any pictures but I used the same tube as I had on the hackberry last season (pictured below).

The oak is at the 24" (halfway mark) as of planting time. So far I've had 2 trees started from seed end up with 6 ft. of growth their first season using these tall tubes. (48" x 4" dia.)

The wife overrode my decision to put them both out in the country and wants me to plant one here in the yard. Oh darn. ;-)

The growing season hasn't even begun for our area but will in another week or so.

Will the head start that my trees have mean that they will be just that much bigger by end of season? Or will they only grow so much per year and harden off earlier in the fall?

Over 3 months ago the Picea mariana seeds germinated, now 5.5" tall.

Larix laricina - over 3" tall.

haha!

If I knew then what I know now, I should've had 4 Larix but then I'm lucky to have ended up with one. This one came awful close to succumbing to damping off, one day the stem looked to be shriveling and several days later, it started pushing growth. In my mind, I had given up.

It's in the 70's by Saturday so I'll get them acclimated to real sun again and plan on them being outside almost every day by then and 24/7 by June 1.

As an aside, the plants acclimated to sun very quickly this year. I've read that LED lights in the 5000k range, do give off some UV, albeit very small amounts, so it makes me wonder if that didn't give the plants a 'head start' in adjusting to 'sun burn'.

Im honestly not sure what range the shop lights I’ve used this spring are in, but my seedlings have also acclimated to the sun very quickly. Many in as few as 2 days.

Yes, I left my plants out for several hours after only two days getting an hour or two previously and was expecting damage but was surprised to see all okay.

My Tsuga c. from seed are light years ahead of the ones I started last year. Can't say for sure if it was the LED's because I've moved the plants into the window during the day and even had them out on the deck for several days when temps made the 60's.

Temps in the grow room kept 73-78F and I'm sure that helped. Humidity not optimal 30-35% but I tried to raise it higher to no avail.

The Tsickly Tsuga c. from last year, under the same conditions as the rest, have much improved growth. They appear to have a nodding leader even when small? :-)

Growing season has just begun.

Looking good and it's been exciting to watch. I'm no expert but those trees do grow in other climates with longer growing seasons so I would think they could grow longer than is typical in your zone. OTOH, don't they just push most new growth in the spring anyway? It might be different for seedlings though. Can you tell I really don't know anything?

Yes, there all kinds of terms used to describe how trees grow. From what I understand, some trees 'decide' early how much new growth they'll have for that season, while others will grow continually throughout the season as long as the necessary variables are favorable. But I don't retain terminology all that well from what I read. :-)

The smaller Tsuga I've had in the yard pushes first growth in the spring and as soon as that begins to harden off, another flush of almost equal length extends itself on into the fall and I always wonder if that tree will harden off properly before winter, which it always seems to do.

I would surmise that a tree is better off being ready to harden off early than not hardening off soon enough. :-)

With no freezing temps predicted and almost to our last frost date, I felt safe planting seedlings outdoors today. I was surprised to find roots galore in the Larix laricina and Picea mariana to the point they would've needed up potting if not planted soon anyway.

Picea mariana: 6-1/2" tall.

Trees this small need protection so I tubed them until a later date (next spring?). Not so much a grow tube but more of a 'mini greenhouse' to protect the tree until it becomes more lignified.

I didn't get a before shot of 'Larry' but he was over 5" tall when I tubed him. ;-)
eta: Larix Laricina planted:
eta: better pics

So mission accomplished. If these two survive, I'm happy. :-)

I still have one P. mariana, one Thuja o. and a few small Tsuga c. leftover, which may end up on my sons place if these continue on and survive.

Planted the final tree from this batch of seedlings today.

Quercus bicolor:

It's the smaller of the two, now ~16" tall.

It was so windy I didn't get a pic until the tube was on.

The larger of the two oaks, that put at my sons place earlier this season, took a freeze on MD which killed about the top 1/3 of the tree (most tender part). I was saving this one to replace it JIC but now I see the lower leaves stayed green on it as did the lower trunk so it should re-leader with TLC.

We could still get some lows in the 40's in the next several days but I think the threat of hard frost is over for this season. We hit 81 F yesterday.

Just wanted to share. Damping off is bad, but it may not result in 100% mortality. This tiny Taiwania cryptomerioides seedling has managed to survive (so far). A few months ago, the original stem began to wilt, and the crown collapsed. But the contact of the crown with the soil induced growth of new roots from it. Now I've got a shorter seedling, but it's growing off to the side of the original stem and seemingly healthy. Neato!

That's amazing Dean!

Having enough energy to send out more roots at that stage of growth.

Usually once the tiny seedling starts to wilt, it's a goner.

I, too, am amazed. The withered stem must have been able to supply just enough nutrients/water while the new roots were forming. It's the only seedling I've had survive damping off, and I have LOTS of experience with damping off.

Update! :-)

Of the two seedlings planted in the yard.

Picea mariana:

Larix laricina:

The rest of my inventory is one Tsuga can. from seed (LL) and one Tsuga can. from last years seedlings, they are practically the same stature although last years is a bit larger and more 'woody'. I have one extra Picea mariana which so far is still a 'back up' to the first one above. And one Thuja o. that survived from the little orange, near death seedling pictured earlier in this thread.

I took the grow tube off the Quercus bicolor today. The tree just wasn't responding. It pushed a couple new leaves at the top but they stayed small and almost looked like iron chlorosis even though that's impossible with my acid soil and plenty of iron naturally in the ground.

I just didn't like what I was seeing, so judgment call. After a few days of sun shade, It will be in the open under full sun. I'm thinking it will photosynthesize better this season and so be more robust next season.

Used burlap appears to let enough light through in case it might sunburn without some hardening off after removing the tube.

Basking in full sun, side branches are becoming more prominent. Been 90's F all week with drought conditions. I might have to move further north. ;-)

Bill, might need to give it a sunshade if it shows suffering. Once it gets roots deep/extensive enough to supply enough moisture, would prb'ly be fine.

Yes, I've been keeping an eye on it everyday.

The clouds have been more numerous lately so that helps, I just wish they had some rain in them.

My watering schedule has been plentiful without being excessive, well maybe a little excessive but our sand is more forgiving than some soils. :-)

The plant has lignified well and stood on it own even in windy conditions.

The only protection I have is the 4ft. chicken wire for deer and rabbits and a smaller hoop of 1/4" hardware cloth, hopefully to keep smaller rodents and large insects away. The wire does cast a low level of shadow and the sun is usually behind the lilacs and shed by 7:00 pm or so.

That would mean 11-12 hrs/day direct sun? Of course our sun is not as high at noon as your sun but maybe we have a somewhat longer day?

So far so good. (picture taken two weeks ago).

Update:

The orange rectangle pot with the Taxus seed, sat in the garage until I put it out on the 'shade table', from there it was primarily ignored and if I thought of it, would run some water into the pure peat moss, while watering other things. Last night it looked a little dry and I had the garden hose in my hand so gave it a good soaking until water ran out the drain holes (you know where I'm going with this, don't you?). :-)

Well, either some other type of seed found it's way in there or there is a Taxus seed that sprouted. I have no idea what Taxus looks like at this stage so if anyone can confirm, it would be appreciated. We should know more in a few days and more may be coming bc there was ~12 seeds planted.

The peat was soaking wet after over an inch of wind/rain last night, so the board decided to bare root transplant that seedling. It was then discovered that it was Taxus seed and there were several more Taxus seed with beginnings of a radicle. Why some are more robust than others idk.

This Radicle was a little over an inch long and what kind of Taxus develops from a seed from a Hicksii Yew? Could it be an English yew? Japanese yew? Or still some sort of Taxus x media?

3" pot with 511 bark mix:

About three weeks in the sun and the Q. bicolor has started growing again. Don't know if it will put up another long leader or just a few more leaves for the season. I'm just glad it appears healthy again. The yellow leaves have turned green so I'll have to assume it didn't get enough light with the tube over it.

I had a 'helmet head' with that first Taxus seed but got it off and it stood up after a couple of days. There's another seed breaking the soil now but I'm not interested in raising too many of them.

Progress report:

Taxus from hicksii seed. Making a go of it.

Tsuga canadensis from seed procured from somewhere out east. Mostly horizontal growth for now.

Thuja occidentalis has done as good as those I grew from seed last year.

Picea mariana 26 oz cup: Was the smallest of the two I saved. Very nice branching.

Picea mariana in the ground: Just as tall as the previous one, even though it was a couple inches taller at planting time. The branches are more sparse and trunk a little more spindly, which befuddles me bc it's had it's share of wind all season. Though I think the advantage goes to this one bc the roots have been roaming free with no air pruning. Hoping for a faster start next season.

Holy smokes, is That all this year’s growth on the Tsuga?

Yup,

The only other Tsuga c. seedling I kept in a pot was one of the Champion tree seeds I started last year and kept in the cold frame. The two I put in the ground didn't do near this good.

Read through Jan 1. Looked through the pictures. Love to see them grow!

Looks like you've got some lovely plants, so maybe this won't be much use. At the same time, I have gotten extremely good at germinating and early growing Abies, Picea, Pinus, and Thuja.

In my experience, they are less picky about temperature as measured on the soil surface than many of the other plants am growing. That said, once they have sprung up, there are some that seem to do better in cooler temps (e.g. Pinus cembra).

What they are crazy about is sterility, loose media, good drainage, and ample humidity.

Just talking about seeds that don't need stratification...

I now use Jiffy peat strips (2" x 2") loaded up with Black Gold soilless seedling mix in 2 1020 trays: one with holes and one without. I arrange the strips in the one with holes. (It's absurd how they don't fit without cutting!)

I heap the seedling mix on the strips and, with a sterilized spade, spread it out into the cells. I don't pack it.

The tray without holes gets filled about 1/2 way with water that I mix with H2O2 and pH to about 5.6 using Vinegar. I then let the strips absorb water from the bottom (it takes a few hours if I haven't used too much water. If I have then I can always drain it off later.)After I sow the seeds, I cover with a 7" dome. I check the moisture. THere should be a little humidity. They soilless mix should still look damp throughout.

I keep 8-bulb t-5 grow lights about 27" above a 2' x 4' space. Wait from 3 days to a few weeks depending upon variety and voila!

When they have their first set of growth, I plant the little Jiffy cells in regular soil. This kills a lot of them--I think because it's not sterile. I get the most survivors when I plant the cells in Black Gold All Purpose mix. However, this stuff is terrible as outdoor soil. And, while, they will do beautifully in it indoors, when I move them outside in bigger than 3" deep Jiffy pots they are miserable.

If you know of a better indoor-outdoor soil, I'd love to hear about it!!!

If you read most of this thread, then you know about as much as I do about planting conifer seed. :-)

Last year (2019) was my first time trying this and the only thing I surmised, this second time, was I won't use peat moss for starting seeds anymore. I had much better results using coir mix, seed starting media, the first time I tried this.

Addison, you say: 'When they have their first set of growth, I plant the little Jiffy cells in regular soil. This kills a lot of them--I think because it's not sterile.'

If you're talking about seedlings that have only their first set of cotyledons, this is the worst time for experiencing 'Damping off disease' and I wouldn't be moving them at that time.

After the seedlings put forth 'real leaves' or needles, they are usually safe from damping off and as long as you plant them into a soil that has good drainage and keep your temperatures and moisture at the right levels, you should be fine. At least that's the way it worked for me.

I'm not sure what you mean about 'Indoor' or 'Outdoor' when talking about soils or how you came across your conclusions about these but you might have noticed, I went with 511 bark based mix, after having poor results with my initial choice for seedlings and have had stellar results since, with all my potted plants.

My outdoor soil is mother earth. If I want to keep some of what I've started in pots, I plant them directly into the ground and use mostly plain water on these. So far, so good. :-)

When I talk about 1st round of growth, I mean after they have their true leaves--when they seem to pause for a couple weeks or months depending.

I might see if 511 bark based is available and give it a go.

What I mean about indoor vs outdoor soil is this: I am set up to grow conifers indoors. For example, I just started a tray of Pinus longaeva because it seems that they do better after growing inside over the fall/winter/early spring than they do when I put them directly outside.

During the fall/winter, if a plant starts growing vigorously, and it looks healthy, then I pot it up directly into a 1 gal trade pot (I don't use plastic anymore; just pot the peat cell directly into a biodegradable Root Pouch. The roots don't get messed with at all unless they are poking out the bottom of the cell.)

If I use indoor soil, and Black Gold isn't the only one I've tried--it's just the best for early growth in my experience--if I move one of the 1 gal trade pots outside when it is full of indoor soil, the plants need a great deal of watering. Further, balancing soil moisture in such a soil when the plant is outside is very difficult.

So, instead of putting vigorous babies into 1 gal pouches full of indoor soil, I am just putting them in 1 gal pouches full of outdoor soil--top soil I've got delivered by the truck load. This doesn't seem to make as many plants very happy when they're very young, but it does seem to result in some more robust babies outside. We'll see how the strategy works.

You won't find 511 in the store, it's more of a DIY mix. Although I've heard of certain products that contain very close to the same ingredients of 511 but I don't know the names of any. :-) I've also heard that Cactus mix or the like is used with good results.

Here is a link: To a post the container gardening forum that will explain 511 with some pictures.

It's 5 parts bark, 1 part perlite and 1 part peat moss with 1 tblsp dolomite lime per 1 gallon of mix.

//////////////////////////////////////

You're too scientific for me and on a much grander scale. :-) So I can't help you with your specific problem. But one thing I've noticed, if you have a small seedling inside a small cell, and put it into a large pot, growth may appear to slow or almost stop. It's because with a large volume of soil, the plant will work more on building roots for a greater length of time and the top will wait. In the long run, you might not see much difference. In fact the slow starter in the larger pot may overtake the one in the small pot bc it's larger root system will support a larger top, eventually. I've always heard it's better to up pot in smaller steps, instead of a huge leap.

Again I'm no expert on the subject.

With the much cooler weather and other things to get busy with, I'm winterizing the trees that were planted in the ground this last spring. Tiny plants can sustain massive damage just because of their size, from rodents and even insects, late in the season.

Larix laricina has fared well all summer but with 1" dia. chicken wire around it and a short tube, I added a ring of 1/2" hardware cloth and topped it with 1/2" HC to eliminate chance of a foraging rodents entering the wire and creating havoc with the little guy. 'Maximum security' WB larix, I hope. :-)

The Picea mariana is also caged for the winter, although I do have a 'back up' that will go in the cold frame so not as high of a risk and easier to replace.

The Tsuga canadensis from the MN champion tree seeds didn't put on much growth in the ground this season but the #2 best, pushed a half inch new growth on a few branches late this season. I already have a shade tree (Pinus resinosa) in place to protect #2 for several years, which I'm thinking is key to growing young Hemlocks in a wintery environment.

Here's #1 Tsuga from SC seed inside rabbit fence. Had an extra ring of 1/2" wire so threw that in. :-)

The only other outside tree from seed I can think of is Quercus bicolor from acorns procured personally from the Freedom tower trees in South Manhattan. Not much to look at but a whole season of growing roots should manifest itself in good growth next season. :-)

There are several other cuttings and plants I'll be putting in the cold frame, late October but I'll be anxious to see what all these do next spring and summer. :-)

'Kyle (East TN, 6b/7a) said:

Holy smokes, is That all this year’s growth on the Tsuga?'

Kyle, we've had such an extended season after some light freezes. Very summer like the last couple of weeks, even 80's last couple of days. Things continued to grow. Thought I'd have to show this one again. 4" pot.

Brandon, you out there? I think I got more than the one inch of growth this time. :-)

Winter update. :-)

Even though we could use some snow cover, the coldest temps so far have been in the upper teens with a lot of mid to upper 30'sf for highs. I don't know if that's good or bad yet.

Humidity has been near 100% at night and at least 70% most days. A few days of 'Silver frost' in the morning.

Picea mariana: Hardened off nicely with winter buds (covered by the frost).

The two Tsuga c. started from seeds from the Minnesota champion tree are beginning to enjoy shade from my other trees. The less sun in the winter on these, the better

Tsuga c.

The Tsuga c. planted from a gallon pot, Fall 2016. (just for the beauty of it).

Was out in the yard the other day. Noticed that the Picea mariana was just beginning to show above the snow. Looked nice and healthy.

Yesterday, I walked past and noticed needles were beginning to desiccate, showing substantial browning after only a few days of sun. Thinking it was a zone 2 plant, I never thought about having any problems, I guess it is just a seedling.

Surrounded it with a old towel for now to keep the sun off it until the ground thaws. It's a bad time of year up here for desiccation of sensitive conifers. Hope I got to it in time.

Looks like 'Larry' (larix laricina) made it through the winter!

Has been showing a little green on the buds for a couple if weeks now but not enough to show good in pictures. After a week of not seeing it, you can definitely tell the needles starting to appear. It will be loaded, either with new branches or 'tufts' of needles all the way down, from tip to the bottom of the tree.

Nice little larch. Their new buds/needles are very resistant to freezing temps.

Good to know.

This is the only green showing around here so far and our forecast now shows a nighttime low of low/mid twenties for a night or two after this weekend. Colder than what was previously forecast but normal this time of year.

Just to verify what you said beng,

After several nights in the low to mid twenties (F) and not much better for highs (high 30's-low 40's), those buds showed no freeze damage. Then with a high of 87f on Saturday and 75 yesterday, those buds continued to push as if it been warm all week. Amazing plant imo.

1-9-21 update:

The little Picea mariana lost about an inch off the top leader. The inch or so below that had dormant buds that broke nicely but seemed to be much slower growing than the rest of them.

So after a while, I cut another inch off the top and tied up one of the side branches, which were all growing vigorously. The new leader has side branches and has grown another inch+ since the picture was taken 10 days ago and the tree is about a foot taller than it was this spring.

Without getting too lengthy, the other trees in this thread are doing well.

I replaced the two small hemlock seedlings, planted in the ground, that refused to grow, with those replacements I kept in pots.

'Larry' is now over 4ft. tall (so much for his life as a dwarf) but nice looking tree.

I gave the Thuja o. to my Grand SIL for their yard at their new place.

The Bicolor oaks are healthy and growing vigorously.

Oh, and just a note. I entered the potted P. marinara in the ornamental plant category at our county fair (dw's idea) before giving it to my son for planting. It WON a blue ribbon! haha!

7-20-22

Update: I think this was my last start from seed thread.

I think these 3 were the main players of the entire thread. The larix and picea were all but miracles when it comes to surviving germination and early growth. But I got an education and free trees to boot! :-)

Picea mariana: 3ft. tall

Larix laricina 'Larry' is taller than I am. It has sort of a 'fireworks display' look with the new growth.

Quercus bicolor: Bicolor oak from acorns collected at the freedom towers in NYC. Put on close to 2ft. of new growth so far this season.

It has multiple leaders (4?), but we need more screen towards the new apartments anyways, so I think we'll let it go au naturelle.

BillMN, usually oaks produce "good" forks that won't split. So it may be fine to let it go. I purposely encouraged a low fork on my N catalpa, as it too makes "good" forks and I wanted something different than the standard single trunk. Brother's white oak below, but this one unfortunately died from oak wilt. Here you can see some branches dead.

Thanks beng, that's good to know.

Mine will never be as nice as your brothers, in my lifetime (nice tree btw) but all I need is plants that are 6> ft. high to provide screen for the single level apartments.

Bicolor oak is highly marcescent which will help a lot.

Last picture from a few days ago (from the deck). I've already had nice comments from the new tenants on how lovely my trees look from their perspective. ;-)

9-20-2022

End of season pictures.

The Larch didn't stretch up any more with 42" growth this season and total height of 7'9".

So yes, seed started in late winter of 2020 puts these at 3 seasons in the ground now.

The Black spruce (P. Marinara) put on 20" new growth and now at 42" total height.

Sorry, no side shot, I've put on a sunscreen for one more winter JIC.

Bicolor oak (Quercus bicolor).

Is now 38" tall, to the branch tips (not counting leaves). The two most dominant leaders gained 24" each this season with two more subordinate leaders 16-18" each.

:-)

They sure look good

Healthy and happy!

Yep, they should be on their own now. Unless of course this sparse rain pattern continues. :-/

9-13-2023: End of season update. ;-)

Picea Mariana: 4' 8" Looks a bit 'bristlier' this time around, winter buds set.

Larix laricina: Updated on dwarf thread: https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5911260/dwarf-larix-laricina#n=16

Quercus Bicolor: 6ft. 10 inches tall (Hardening off rather well).

;-)

4-25-2024:

FWIW:

I did not give the P. mariana sunshade last Fall for winter. The tree seemed more mature and is getting partial shade from the surrounding spruce that are now tall enough to supply some afternoon shade.

So, I just took a chance and let it go unprotected. No winter burn at all coming through this spring of the 2023/2024 winter. Should be good to go, from now on I would think.

:-)