Paul, many small businesses don't pay their taxes, which is evident when they ask you to pay cash for their services. Do you inquire about their tax compliance? No, you don't. They are aware of their obligations, so you can assume. Same with Etsy roses sellers and royalty.

What about all the small buisnesses and other under-paid, hard workers that DO pay their taxes? The dishonest folk are ripping those people off much more than they are ripping off "the government". Why the frack do so many people these days seem to think that they can just make up their own version of what is truth, honesty, honour?

I wouldn't say many small businesses don't pay their taxes, and I've had just one guy ask for cash for services as a sprinkler repair person in all my years. I was self employed as a designer at one time, and never once did I ask for cash. The companies I worked for all issued contracts to me and there were specific arrangements for payment by check. Diane

Yikes , I hit the wrong part of the "like" thingie and wound up"liking" my own post, which is unfair. Sorry,peeps

BTW, I strongly avoid any buisness that demands that I pay in cash. It is indeed a clear sign of dishonesty. I feel very strongly on this point-we are a family of three and only my DH actually makes money. And he pays the taxes. Sad, very, very sad to say, apparently half of the population in Italy do not -they cheat their neighbours and friends right and left, and many still manage to come across as "nice people". Yuck.

Paul,

Are royalty payments for a variety (without a US patent ) a law or more a common courtesy in the industry? How long does the royalty period last? I’m just curious, I don’t believe I’ve ever sold a rosebush , but I have given away some rooted cuttings.

It seems like we are making asumptions about these Etsy sellars when we really dont know what they pay and what they dont. Probably like any company some are more dilligent than others .

Looking at all the comments about Etsy sellers is interesting but my one question concerns non-Etsy sellers such as Northland, Burling, ARE, etc: why aren't they selling these roses too? Being in the industry, they have to know about these roses everyone is wanting if legit & the prices were lower. Seems to me a no-brainer to buy some, propagate & sell. Yet to my knowledge it's only Etsy?

And YouTuber The Rose Geek for example, has not bought any to show on her station as far as I know(I could be wrong). Just makes me wonder. I am not a business person so I'm ignorant about all this. Has anyone asked the sellers I mentioned, if there are any plans in the future maybe to offer these roses?

Soozie, Grace from GRF is planning to extend her Tantau and Delbard roses line and present Japanese roses to the market. Her prices for “exclusive“ roses are $79 as of this year.

Frances, if your first sentence about taxes came from my post, my apologizes for misunderstanding, I have corrected my original post to be clear. The mention of taxes was actually part of my analogy when Paul suggested I inquire with the Etsy seller about royalties.

Elena,

That’s interesting, that GRF will be adding Tantau, Delbard and Japanese roses. I am excited to see her new roses!

BTW, Although, some sellers are selling rises for higher prices… just a teninder of hiw difficult it is for a small business, or any plant business to make a profit. I really wonder how they survive. With today’s economy escslating prices, I commend any of the nurseries for staying in business! Tyank you to Etsy seller's that are still in business!

This thread is SO DISTURBING. It's upsetting to know that so many people are willing to ignore the possibility of dishonest buisness practices just to get what they want! Perhaps it all is completely above-board and legit, but I can't help but share SoozieQ's perplexity. I know nothing about buisness myself, but I do know that Paul Bardon is himself a rose breeder and a genuine rose lover, so if he's skeptical I tend to think there's a reason. It does seem to me important, because import/export laws about plants are there for a reason. Just because you recieve a plant that looks healthy and has "no bugs" on it doesn't mean much of anything-Rose Rossette diease-bearing mites are invisible, for example; who knows if they have "cousins"? A lot of stuff like that does not show up immediately. If a buisness IS legit, they will comply with quarantine laws, etc, to guarantee that all precautions have been taken to make as sure as possible that nothing unwanted is travelling on the plant. By just closing an eye, and not questioning a seller, it seems to me that a buyer is contributing to lowering the bar as to what is acceptable and what is not. This sort of mentality does not only apply to rose purchasing, either. Very, very disturbing.

Of course, if everything these sellers are doing has been done legally and correctly, there's no problem. But doesn't anyone want to enquire before buying into this???

bart bart, Are you familiar with the concept of presumption of innocence? Could you please read frances_in_nj post below and move your moral judgment text here?https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6424029/moral-and-other-aspects-of-buying-rare-roses-in-us

thank you!

I have answered Paul here: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6424029/moral-and-other-aspects-of-buying-rare-roses-in-us#n=1

Let's keep this thread for roses. Thanks again!

Of course I'm familiar with presumption of innocence,but citing it here seems totally out of place. This is not a court of law; it's just a forum where people are supposed to be able to present their point of view, which is what I am doing. I'm not a judge. But the fact remains that to me these sites seem so dodgy -all have the same photos, no apparent physical location... and the fact remains that those Japanese roses don't seem to be available anywhere else in the USA. Honestly all these sites seem to be different names for the same place.

I'm not accusing anyone; I think you must've mis-interpreted my post,elenazone6. I'm just saying that questioning this sort of thing seems essential to me. If one smells a rat, one has a right to investigate, and here I'm smelling rat.. If I were in this situation (I'm not; I'm in Italy. If I look up Etsy, all I see is Italian Etsy; these sites can only be seen if you type in the address) I would first contact the Dept. of Agriculture to make sure that the plants I was purchasing were legally and fairly imported. If they are , fine. In any case I am not taking anyone to court or the like. It seems to me that if the situation were indeed as above-board as some people seem to wish to believe, there'd be no need of such a defensive attitude on the part of the pro-etsiers.

And , yes, all this does indeed concern me personally. All of us are living on this one planet-Earth. Everything that every human being does has consequences on her/his fellows.Have we learned nothing from the pandemic?

I have a right to protest if and when I see something that seems to me to be possibly threatening global health. By birth, I am a citizen of the USA, but I am shocked to realize that so many compatriots have no awareness of their actions and the possible consequences of said actions. The current political situation makes those of us in Europe only too aware.

I've already shared my thoughts on elenazone6's latest post. However, since there aren't many participants in that thread yet, I'll also share my opinion here. You can skip this if you've already seen it in the other post.

I think relying on morals to accuse and stop people from buying roses from certain places won't work. Somehow the US rose market seems closed off and misses out on loads of new and stunning roses available worldwide. Breeders in Japan and Europe have come up with many amazing roses lately, but you hardly see them with major US vendors. Luckily, places like Etsy give rose lovers a chance to get these varieties.

Personally, I prefer buying from registered sellers, even if it means paying a bit more for their efforts in introducing new roses. Sadly, not many sellers seem to see this, so buyers end up going to Etsy, Ebay, or other places. It's a tough choice – wait forever for these beautiful roses or cough up extra to get them elsewhere. so, if those Japanese roses don't seem to be available anywhere else in the USA, who's to blame?

The biggest questionable practice for me is the lack of any noticeable certification from the Dept of Agriculture. Any reputable reseller can provide it, or even put it inside the box. When I inquired from one of the sellers on Etsy I got no reply. That fact alone is telling, even more so is most sellers do not list any restricted states when even major nurseries can’t ship to some states.

California is the largest agricultural state in the nation. I don’t want to be the person that selfishly introduced Japanese beetles or some other pest to our great state just because I wanted a particular rose that wasn’t being sold legally. I won’t pass judgement on others who decide differently but I wonder how many even know to ask such questions.

One day if the USPS notices, federal mail charges are no laughing matter. (Also telling—unboxing videos I’ve seen do not mark the boxes with LIVE PLANT MATERIAL or other common notices).

Thank you so much, Ryan Coastal. What you said is exactly what I've been trying to say, but for some reason my words gets twisted into something that I don't intend, and instead of recognizing my right to question a situation that seems shady to me,people avoid the real issue and turn it into something about me "being judgemental",etc -in other words, my expressing doubts seems to be interpreted as a defect in my character. In other words, they change the subject. I'm trying to talk about the need for care and sobriety when dealing with these new forms of rose commercing; what the frack is so "judgemental" about that? Very disturbing.

Ryan and bart bart -- these are EXCELLENT questions, and I don't sense that you are trying to impose your world order on anyone else, but just raising the questions. I raised similar questions in the early days of this thread. If we are "free" enough to order whatever roses we want from whomever we want and to heck with any consequences, then we should also be free to comment on THIS thread on THIS forum, and we should not have to be relegated to a side thread with hints that our questions are somehow inappropriate. So kudos to both of you for raising questions. And in full disclosure, someone I trust a great deal on this forum helped me sort through a couple of my own issues, and I *did* actually purchase from Etsy. When I did, I was both pleased AND dismayed. Yes, the plants *looked* healthy (though I still sprayed them immediately and then defoliated and sprayed again). But the boxes were not labeled with live plants and did not carry any inspection notices. And a direct request to know the breeder of a rose plant has gone unanswered. And these roses are crazy expensive for such tiny plants. I am still uneasy with my choice, and wonder if, indeed, I've been "selfish" (to use Ryan's word).

On the other hand, I do think that the major sellers of roses in the USA might do some marketing analysis to understand how their own practices may well be contributing to the increasing "black market" sales of roses. In short, I'm still conflicted. I think the questions being asked here might help us to think carefully about our choices and how they may impact others. We may all come to different decisions, but I see no harm in asking the questions.

Thank you, Paul, for informing us how little $ you make from introducing roses. That is a sobering thought. I hope you derive some joy in the knowledge that you've made the world a more beautiful place, and you've made a lot of people smile.

DDinSB, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

Why of course Etsy sellers are reliable. Etsy is where I'm ordering my "Rainbow Rose Bush," the black petaled "Midnight Blue" rose, and the electric blue "Blue Dragon" rose. I am so excited!

And I am likewise sure the guys I always saw selling "bootleg" CD's in the subway paid royalties and taxes too. And the folks on this forum whose photos keep getting swiped and used by others to market roses, sell their services, or are just misappropriated without credit, no doubt they are getting reimbursed for the use of their intellectual property... That's why I support these small business enterprises.

One could go on and on...

It is a worthy question, and I'm frankly troubled by folks not just turning a willful blind eye to the issue, but being rather churlish to those bringing the issue up. It is a very real problem, and rather than get knickers in a wad about someone asking, do a little research, folks.

Best start a new thread now…about sharing what we ordered-ir what we’d like to consider in beautiful Etsy roses.

As Elena mentioned prior, there is a thread for those who wish to dispute. i would prefer they keep their disputing separate from those of us who wish to share and enjoy positive friendships and roses.

Thank you Elena for your lovely thread.

Haha, the beauty of an unmoderated forum. Kitty, take it easy.

It is interesting that they wouldn't just let folks know that they are a legal nursery and have passed and continue to pass inspections. Attaching the nursery inspection paperwork etc. My concern is also disease. If they are kosher fine but until we know, I guess I will pass.

Look what happened to the American Chestnut! It was a predominant tree all up and down the east coast. Other chestnut trees from Japan were imported to the US which carried Chestnut Blight. This blight killed an estimated 3-4 Billion American Chestnuts...basically all but a few. Some of these trees had a 12 foot diameter and could be 130ft high. They were so strong, straight, & rot resistant they were used as railroad ties, fence posts, building houses, flooring, and caskets! The saddest thing was, the roots of these magestic giants still lived due to the Blight not being able to compete with the microbes in the soil. So, the roots continued to try and grow, sending up saplings only to be again decimated and girdled by blight and in a never ending death cycle.

These trees had been food for wildlife like squirrels, bear, turkeys, deer. People used them to fatten their hogs and cattle. Insects broke down the leaves and left rich soil. People used the American Chestnuts and their leaves etc to make: flour, medicine, dyes, even insecticides going back hundreds if not thousands of years. During long cold Appalachian Winters, people really relied on chestnuts to get through.

Just saying, It was a big deal losing these trees. We are now left with the Chinese Chestnut, Japanese Chestnut and some hybrids like the Dunstan that are blight resistant.

So roses aren't chestnuts and probably not as devastating of a loss but it goes to show what can happen when unknowingly introduced pathogens are introduced. Florida and now other Citrus-Growing States are losing all thier trees to diseases as well from introductions of disease carrying insects etc.

I am not saying don't buy from these people on etsy, ebay, or wherever. I am just saying know for certain if they are or are not legit and if they inspected ..Especially, if they are importing plants. If so, great..if not..just consider what could happen. There's good reasons why countries have Quarantine Programs and Inspection Laws.

~Off my soapbox now lol~

Excellent history lesson, Sultry. Thanks.

Ecosystems are fragile as Sultry pointed out.

It’s also fairness. If some nurseries don’t have to play by the rules—forgo expensive agriculture inspections and quarantines, skip spraying insecticides on roots to states that require it—they are not only making more money than they should, but there’s little incentive to play by the rules and make those same roses available legally.

Sadly, something very similar has happened recently in Italy. An imported chestnut tree (I think it, too, came from Japan, or maybe China?) carried over some kind of mite that spread to the native chestnuts and is killing them. The tiny village where I used to live is surrounded by woods that used to be dominated by chestnuts.Long ago,in the past, when this village was very isolated and VERY poor, the people relied on those trees for their fruits- they make flour out of chestnuts here in Italy. When my son was an infant, I used to go for walks in those chestnut woods, carrying him in his baby "marsupio" (one of those carriers in which you put your baby and can carry him/her on your chest, leaving your arms at liberty). An old lady told me that this was a great idea, because according to her, chestnut woods are good for your lungs (I guess like pine resin in pine groves?) Now when we drive up to the town to get stuff from our old house, those woods are a sad sight indeed-full of dead, brown chestnut trees. Italy really needs to have stricter import laws.

Eco systems are indeed fragile.

Ryan is also so right about the whole fairness issue. If some people cheat, there's a big, big risk of everyone's standards just going to the devil. Notice that I do say "IF".

Philpatx,thank you so much for your post. Sure, it's nice to give people the benefit of the doubt but if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. " It is a worthy question, and I'm frankly troubled by folks not just turning a willful blind eye to the issue, but being rather churlish to those bringing the issue up. It is a very real problem, and rather than get knickers in a wad about someone asking, do a little research, folks." I fully agree.

This turned into a very good thread, though clearly full of controversy,lol. Acutally I think almost everyone was pretty good ,though of course I didn't like the attempt at bullying. Really only one person seemed to me out-of-line, taking everything very personally and displaying real intolerance. To me, the whole point of a forum is to discuss things,ask questions.

The whole question of importing seems to me to be becoming increasingly delicate and important. Maybe it's just the pandemic or something, but I think we all have to be more careful about stuff. I am trying to get the Rose Monkey off my back, but I did decide not long ago to try to limit my purchases as much as I can to Italian nurseries. It's perfectly legal to import from other UE countries,but I am questioning the wisdom of doing that unless necessary. When I was younger. I used to make large orders from nurseries in Holland, Germany, etc because prices were lower and the selection was wider. But often the plants were disappointing specimens,and I think may have had more difficulty in taking off, having begun their lives in a different climate.

Dear all,

I am going to post this here and in the other thread so everything is clear for everyone.

I reached out to WABARA (Keiji roses).

I copy pasted the list of sellers that appears in the "Etsy rose sellers we can trust" thread and asked Wabara if any of these are authorized resellers paying their royalties .

Below is the reply from Wabara.

I could not find an email address for Kawamoto , so I sent them an actual letter. I suspect their reply will be the same.

The controversy should never have existed, since it is easy to find out the truth. These sellers are all illegitimate. If you want to continue in spite of this information, that's on you.

The good news is that there may soon be a legit way to get Wabara roses.

Thank you so much, seaside!!!

Thanks, Seaside, for going to the trouble to write the legitimate breeders of the Japanese roses Etsy sellers have illegally foisted on our rose growing community. The news from this breeder is exactly as I expected, and you will not find me buying from any of the illegitimate Etsy sellers, who are basically thieves robbing others of their intellectual property. Thanks you again for your efforts. I wish buyers on the forum would not be so eager to buy from these thieves. I think Etsy itself should be informed that their site is basically a thieves' fencing operation when it comes to Japanese roses. Diane

I am so glad to see the turn this thread took - I generally avoid this topic, because I find it so upsetting that this kind of rose trade is happening regularly and is openly discussed. Thank you to those who clearly explained why purchasing roses in this manner is a bad idea on multiple levels.

Personally, I don't even consider making purchases of this type.

I emailed GCM Ranch and asked her where roses were grown and she replied

” Thank you for your interest in our company. Have a nice day ”

Also note, JessiesRoses is currently in litigation with David Austin Ltd. They are being sued for patent infringement (illegally propagating DA roses), trademark infringement and IP theft (using photos from DA’s own web site). DA also noted in their filing they suspect the plants were illegally imported into the US and the defendant ships plant materials across state lines without proper inspections.

Normally these kinds of lawsuits are sealed until made public but the filing was leaked online. I highly suspect DA leaked it as a warning to the other Etsy sellers. You can find it using the obvious Google-fu.

All to say if you have orders I’d make sure you get shipment ASAP and if you don’t take appropriate steps with your CC, as DA will likely want a lot of damages that most mom and pop shops don’t have in their piggy bank.

Ryan, thanks for sharing this info, I finally took the time to find the entire complaint - wow. I hope it's a catalyst for change, but it doesn't seem like it has made much of a dent thus far - it takes only about 30 seconds to find other patented DA roses for sale on Etsy. Even the defendant seems to still be selling roses, just no longer any DAs. It amazes me how brazen it is to offer these openly for sale, and how risky it is to make a purchase from one of these sellers.

I'm sure not all Etsy sellers are the same . There are those that play by the rules and those that don't. Just notice what they're selling.

@erasmus_gw I just took the time to to that for the list presented here - have you done the same?

Elf Rose, no I have not looked at all the offerings of all these businesses. For one thing, I am not in a hurry to buy any Japanese roses that not much is known about. There may be many more sellers of roses or other plants on Etsy and I am just saying that I doubt they are all unethical. I know on ebay some are quite ethical and some are not.

@erasmus_gw I have no plans to buy any of those roses either, but for the purposes of this conversation, I think it would be wise for each of us to take a quick look. It's eye opening.

I totally understand the fun of looking at a whole new source of exciting and beautiful roses... but another poster brought up a very important point- how are these roses getting into the U.S.? What precautions are being taken by those bringing them in to ensure another American Chestnut type of disaster does not happen? The American chestnut- once the 'redwood of the east', average height 100 ft, some had trunks over 10 ft wide. Please take a look at any of the many pages with the pictures and history of these magnificent trees and ask yourself if getting a beautiful rose, without vetting the seller is complying with ag regulations, is worth it.

https://www.npr.org/local/305/2021/10/18/1047023029/the-american-chestnut-was-wiped-out-a-century-ago-could-it-make-a-comeback

I posted on the other thread, too -- DA is now also suing GCM Ranch, though I didn't pay the service to read the complaint: https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/53063554/David_Austin_Roses_Limited_v_GCM_Ranch_LLC_et_al

@elenazone6 in your original post, you asked "Please let me know if I need remove any sellers below"

David Austin has apparently now sued four of these sellers. Grounds for removal? I would think so.

From a strictly archivist standpoint, I wouldn't remove the four from the list. I'm really not in favor of removing information unless it's outright incorrect or a lie. If anyone is reading this thread, which clearly asks for input on the listed vendors, presumably they will read all the way down and see the comments.

@susan9santabarbara I can understand that take on it, but I think there's a large number of people who would see the words "we can trust" and just start clicking on the links.

For full visibility I’d prefer an edit with a disclaimer about those shops rather than removing them entirely. There are almost 250 comments at this point and I would imagine most folks who haven‘t been part of the thread since the beginning aren’t going to read all the way through to the latest developments.

I think that's a great idea, Heather RR

Heather, that would be the perfect solution. Maybe Elena would consider doing it.

Put an asterisk on the names of Etsy sellers who are identified as unauthorized sellers of these Japanese roses, so people know these ones are suspect.

Elena can you please message me because I cant message you?

Kitty please check you DM. Thank you!

Lol now theres noone on the list??