What kills me is how Houzzers are regularly spouting off "Get an engineer" to look at a paticular problem, but when you've done so, they want to disregard his advice. Sorry Houzzers, you don't get to have it both ways.

Your engineer has given you a technical solution to your problem. Whether or not that solution can be implemented cost effectively is a separate issue.

So, why to buy? The property is on an an island accessible by a bridge. It is by the sea with own tidelands that are now leased to a shelfish farm. A great view with a snowy (sleepy) volcano. And price-wise, it is cost as an unimproved land in a similar location. If the landslide is stablized and the house is possible to salvage, the property will cost more than $1 million, which will be more than 2x of total cost including purchase price and all imporobrments. So, it is an opportunity to create more than $0.5 million value.

I guess, you can do what you want to, but, I wouldnt want it. I would run very fast away from it.

It will only increase in value if nothing more happens to the land AND you’ll be able to find a future buyer willing to risk buying a property with this one’s history, at full price (not discounted for the risk).-

Yeah, sure.

Back in my contracting days, I used to love the customers that told me they'd already had 5 guys tell me that the project couldn't be done, because I'd do it and the jobs were real moneymakers.

All this naysaying is an excellent sign.

Don’t get me wrong. I am looking for a family home, no intent to sell.

Ok, I was referring to this: "So, it is an opportunity to create more than $0.5 million value."

Condemned house with not only the foundation compromised but, apparently, some of the framing. Is there a septic system? Has that been compromised as well? Water supply? Well? Potentially another problem.

The hillside is not stable despite being heavily wooded. Does the entire hill convey with the house?

Is this located in the United States? What state? Have you reckoned with dealing with the state's DNR? Is the site even or still considered 'buildable'?

Have you priced out how much installing 13 piles and all the other items that need to be fixed will cost? Have you looked into building code restrictions and whether or not you can do what you want to do legally? Is it going to cost you $500k to fix?

How far are you away from that cliff?

It is $70k to add 13 piles around the perimeter, inside and outside for the balcony support. I am also working on valudating my estimates for other projects - proper drainage, additional retaining walls, house renovation, septic revival, getting access back to electricity and shared well. Based on my estimates it will be at least $200k.

13 piles.

I'm no expert, but I'm involved in building 2 coastal properties with many piles (more than 13 for sure). Here's what I know.

Do you have an actual engineering report from this engineer? Because we have engineering reports from coastal engineers (wave up-rush engineers), NASA tidal-maps, Army Corps of Engineers tidal predictions for the next 100 years, structural engineers, geologists (several of those, because it needs engineering geology reports, soil reports, geotechnical reports, etc). I would estimate that we have been required to have 15-20 different professional reports for each project.

THE SLOPE ABOVE YOU:

That's not all. We are building on stable land that hasn't had a slide. You need to assess the slope above your house, and have the reports/testing extend upslope. So you're also going to need environmental-plant experts to recommend the best ways to fix the slope drainage using plants and whatever methods might be required for ensuring no more slope slide. Because it's the whole slope. It's not just the pad where your house will sit. And in the short term, slope protection remediation which might mean several engineering reports, environmental experts, and serious drainage control. This is not just a "retaining wall".

Finally, there's the issue of insurance. Where I live, the insurance market is a disaster, with homeowners being cancelled left and right, unexpectedly. Maybe that's not the case where you are, but (depending on the laws in your state) you may be required to disclose the previous landslide both to your insurance AND when you sell. Even if you can get insurance, it doesn't necessarily mean the next buyer can get insurance. So, that needs to factor into your calculations.

$70,000 for 13 piles? Hmm. Our foundation for one house is predicted to be $600K. Yes, it's in a HCOLA, but still. I'd look into that some more. And have a VERY experienced architect guiding you.

We live in the mountains ….where people have had their homes slide a little…. and a lot….neither could be called anything less than a disaster…with the added negative that no one wants to sell you insurance in that kind of setting…with that history….even demolition and re-build is way too much to spend on property that cannot be insured…

Luckily we have a situation where there is a paved road just behind and above our home that is kept clear by the county..as it is a steep mountainside …but small highway….since lots of stuff is washed down hill when there is a big rain…we would have that in our backyard if not for that county road

I visited to the property to get more details. It appears the slopped driveway is designed in such a way that it direct rain water exactly (!) into the lower right corner of the house that sunk. Also, rain drain in that corner dumps water and there is no drainage to move it from the foundation. The soil above the house does appear to move as the new concrete retaining wall previous owners built 9 years ago cracked in a couple of places. That’s definitely a big concern. As to septic, it appears that the complete septic field and the septic tank are at the top of the driveway on the opposite side from the house. What’s interesting is that the previous owners probably spent at least $700-800k, if not more, as everythint inside the house is high end, including a separate room with a water filteration system. They also built incredibly expensive terraces on the side of the property that borders with neighbor’s house. No surprise, they

went bankrupt when it turned out they needed to invest more to fix the house. The view is also breathtaking.

I visited to the property to get more details. It appears the slopped driveway is designed in such a way that it direct rain water exactly (!) into the lower right corner of the house that sunk. Also, rain drain in that corner dumps water and there is no drainage to move it from the foundation. The soil above the house does appear to move as the new concrete retaining wall previous owners built 9 years ago cracked in a couple of places. That’s definitely a big concern. As to septic, it appears that the complete septic field and the septic tank are at the top of the driveway on the opposite side from the house. What’s interesting is that the previous owners probably spent at least $700-800k, if not more, as everythint inside the house is high end, including a separate room with a water filteration system. They also built incredibly expensive terraces on the side of the property that borders with neighbor’s house. No surprise, they

went bankrupt when it turned out they needed to invest more to fix the house. The view is also breathtaking.

Olia, you need to understand something. You don't know what you don't know.

Just because you see water distributed toward one side of the home and there is sinking at that side, you probably think you understand the cause and possible cure for that drainage and sinkage. You do NOT know that.

Engineers can map that site, by various methods including testing and coring out samples to see where the bedrock is (6 feet down, or 40 feet down? Is it sloped toward the water? or level?), and how the strata of the underground is situated. You don't know if there are old pipe systems, underground reservoirs, a high water-level underground, an actual underground river, or what.

A surveyor will map out the septic and stake it, test it, and render a report on the sewage system.

You do not know. It will cost you many many thousands of dollars, quite possible hundreds of thousands of dollars, to figure all this out.

Your family's safety is at stake here! You may be building on a knowably unstable hillside. If it were me, I wouldn't risk it, and certainly not if all I had to spend was $1M.

If the top of the hill slid, (or shifted) as you stated in your original post, due (according to YOU) to heavy rainfall.... (how do you know what caused the top of the hill to shift? Just curious.)

Even if true, there is nothing stopping further heavy rainfall events. You can't stop that! You would have to core and assess and get reports for a whole lot more than just the pad your house sits on. You stand to lose a lot of money. Have you been to the city to discuss this site with the agency that condemned it? They may have good advice and information for you.

"You stand to lose a lot of money."

True, but you stand to gain a lot from the risk you're taking. You won't be sorry investing a bit more time and money to see if the property can be cost effectively saved.

"... coring out samples to see where the bedrock is (6 feet down, or 40 feet down?"

Friction piles don't need bedrock; that's not how they work and at 25 feet, those are certainly friction plies. The friction between the pile and the surrounding soil provide the foundation, not bedrock. Highlight here.

It is this exact kind of misinformation and fear that's going to put you in a very strong bargaining position. When all other buyers are terrified, but you've got science, math, and budget on your side, you'll make money and have a safe home with a great view at a huge discount.

"Have you been to the city to discuss this site with the agency that condemned it? They may have good advice and information for you."

Excellent idea. Contact the AHJ please.

Olia, what do you what from the people here? With the exception of Mrs. S., most of us do not have direct experience in the situation that you describe. We can only give you our man-on-the-street opinions, and we all think it is a bad idea.

I don't know crap about hillsides, but I get that you desperately want a waterfront property at a cheap price. Well, the people in front of you with this lot apparently spent huge sums on the place. Why do you think that you will be any more successful?

I have lived on one of the Great Lakes for over 2 decades and have watched a rising lake level take out a lot of homes--not exactly the same as what you are seeing but still bad. With our particular Great Lake, there is a periodic pattern. Every 20-30 years, the lake will rise to a high level. One individual not too far from me bought a lake parcel when the lake was at its low, and this individual built a huge several million dollar home. Guess what? Lake went up again years later, and those folks went through hell trying to save their home (barges bringing in giant breakwater-sized rocks, lawsuits with regulatory authorities to let them try to save their home, water damage everywhere).

About 15 years ago, an individual bought a large vacant waterfront lot (4 acre) near me and found out that it was going to be really, really expensive to build there because of the terrain (huge ravine). That individual then bought another lakefront home and sat paying property taxes on that lot for 8 years before someone else approached them about selling. The first individual decided to sell half of that lot to the second individual, who also though they could build a waterfront home there on half of the lot. After being quoted $1 mil just for the driveway and bridge to access the proposed house location on the lot, that second individual has put their house plans on hold indefinitely because of the cost and bought another non-lakefront house in the neighborhood. These folks have money enough to just sit on the property and own it as a hobby (look everyone, I own xx acres of unspoiled lakefront land). But even they decided to pass on building when the price tag got into $6 mil. to build a small home.

You are playing around with something that will require large sums of money to resolve. I don't know your finances, but particularly if you are located in one of those environmentally correct states, you are going to have to spend a lot on inspections and regulatory crap that won't do a thing toward actually fixing the house.

Again, forget about this house at its current price it just isn't the bargain that you think it is.

All the above relies on a favorable outcome..which in this case is not guaranteed…maybe not even probable..over time the situation will most probably get worse… not better

My experience where we are building on SOLID ground that has NEVER slid, with no "slippery hillside" that fails or has EVER failed in heavy rain in 75 years, is that coring samples have been drilled out until they hit bedrock, and underground water mapped and assessed (oceanfront property, but dozens of feet above the surf) until city planners and coastal rules are satisfied that septic had never failed or leaked, that the flow of rainwater and groundwater was accounted for at the appropriate slope/rates given the differing soil consistencies at various levels underground, and all of this is to determine the extent and type of piles necessary.

We have engineering reports after engineering reports indicating cross sections of the slope and what type of loam/sand/granite/whatever is under there and how it slopes, and how water travels through it. Because water travels THROUGH the ground and slope, not just down the driveway.

Only then, in conjunction with city rules, were we allowed to go forward with approved plans and then bid out the foundation . How could an engineer give even a ballpark estimate on shoring up a condemned house, without knowing absolutely thoroughly what would be necessary to shore up the whole mountain? Hillside?

Yes, there are piles and then there are piles. Maybe they don't need to be drilled into bedrock. Maybe they do, who knows? Could an engineer know that without assessing the entire slope above the slide? Again, I'm not an expert, not an engineer, but I am currently seeing these things, and I do not understand how the situation with this condemned house would warrant less scrutiny than what we are dealing with.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's going to require a lot of money up front on engineers. Remember, there are MULTIPLE types of engineers. Geological, geotechnical, soils, septic, coastal, etc. Probably more I don't remember. This is a big group/team effort here. Not just some guy who says hey $70K for 13 piles. How could he know?

"When all other buyers are terrified, but you've got science, math, and budget on your side, you'll make money and have a safe home with a great view at a huge discount."

And even if it remains stable, at some point there will be a sale, this all will have to be disclosed and if "all the other buyers are terrified" who will buy it at a great profit? Those buyers not terrified will likely be looking for a big discount for the risk they will be assuming. And IF this property can ever be insured, or if a bank will ever loan on it (should a buyer need it).

I suspect the problem goes all the way back to improper site work. Looks like this was a cut and fill into the hillside so a good amount of soil disturbance.. Improper compaction, possible lack of a drainage system, tree removals...

Do you own and control the hill that is upward to the home? If you do not, then no amount of work you do to your site will make it safe from the hill uphill becoming the hill that moves downhill, burying the house.

" Not just some guy who says hey $70K for 13 piles. How could he know?"

Maybe because he's done it many times over many years for many satisfied clients without failure? Maybe because he's got the GC who will do the work on speedial because they've worked together successfully for many years? Maybe because he's got an excellent working relationship with the AHJ?

https://www.coldwellbanker.com/wa/shelton/629-east-harstine-heights-lane/lid-P00800000GVvo24gkVmuuLkeXXqLGG13APIlpviw

Doesn't look like a lot of high-end finishes or nearly finished to me.

Looks to me like someone has started a salvage operation. Cabinetry gone/ baseboards gone, missing closet doors. Plot is something like 2.5 acres so would probably be equal to or worth more than asking price if the house was gone. Assuming that it is still considered buildable.

70K is laughable. The real truth of the situation is that IF you manage to spend the 1M to stabilize the property and rebuild the condemned house, do you also possess enough money to keep the hill above you from sliding down onto you? I don't care if you do put piers down to the bedrock, and it would be motionless in a 8.2 earthquake. The rest of the soil on the property, and the hill above, are not going to remain motionless. Hillside houses where slides are a thing, are never long term safe. Not even Elon has enough money to fight hydrostatic pressure and tons of soil moving downhill. https://youtu.be/39FzF8li_Tc?si=V-y6qZpd1UrHSe3j 

This looks like a much better buy. https://www.coldwellbanker.com/wa/shelton/3061-e-pickering-rd/lid-P00800000GYyl6v5ne69VyopfKfTA7VX2CJtYigd

Minardi, she was not proposing to spend $1 mil, she was proposing to spend around $500k altogether (roughly $280K for the house, plus a projected $200K for repairs). She believed that it would be worth around $1 mil once that restoration was completed.

Mason County has a HIGH likelihood of a large earthquake of major proportions within the next 25 years and a HIGH probability of landslides, as the area experiences some level of landslides almost annually, according to the report in the link attached below.

https://masoncountywa.gov/forms/dem/HIVA.pdf

Her spot on Harstine Island is colored pink on the Mason County Landslide Hazard Map below.

Below is a picture of one of the house's retaining walls. A bit of spackle would fix that right away--not.

Hard pass. The county has a map predicting more land slides in this very spot?!? Also have to point out that the listing shows this statement is laughable ”everything inside the house is high end,”

You need an estimate on worst case scenario, not the best case scenario. I would think worst case is you have to tear it down, rebuild, then it’s condemned again due to landslide. If you can afford that, yeah go for it. If it would leave you in financial ruin, which would be the case for most people, then run away.

I dudidn’t realize this was in my neck of the woods, one county over from me. Add to the mix that Mason County is a rural county with small towns, no real urban areas where people with advanced education and businesses which might have the skills to effectively assess and/or abate all the problems shown here will be limited. People with that advanced knowledge and experience could likely not earn a living there. Incomes and opportunities are limited. Statewide regulatory government agencies are in my county, which would have a high level of expertise and oversight, but I doubt much of that exists in the private arena in Mason County. That may explain some things about the engineer’s report.

I have a loved one trying to sell a waterfront home on the neighboring inlet of puget sound, that has similar problems. The home is intact, but dated and the high bank is being lost to erosion. The only value is in the land, which is large enough to safely place a house much farther back from the edge, but then a buyer would have to pay for a teardown and the sellers would get no money for the existing house. What should be a million+ piece of real estate is likely going to net 100k.

So many people from out of the area are moving in and buying places in areas that the locals know have histories of slides, especially during earthquakes and extreme rain events.

Olychick, I think there are still a lot of tech types that could work from home from this location and make a tidy sum. Perhaps not, I'm not from there.

Anyway, as you pointed out, Mason County is rural county with small towns. What that can mean, is there is not a government regulatory department/division that is vetting a lot of what is going on building-wise there. That can be great for a potential home builder in terms of saving the home builder money on engineering reports/surveys/etc. But that also means is that those government roadblocks that can help stop someone from building on what is unbuildable property are not there either.

Hello everyone, thank you so much to all of you for sharing your thoughts. It really helps me to think through this potential project. Let me address several questions: 1) Challenges of getting insuarance - I consulted with an insurance agent who actuallu visited the property himself. His opinion was that if it is possible to enforce the slope and fix the foundation problem,getting insurance wouls be feasible. 2) Even though the property is in the rural area, there are qualified enngineers and builders based in Olympia, the capitol of Washington State. I would not doubt their qualifications. The previous owners signed a covenant with Mason county to aknowledge that they would be building in the slide prone zone. it appears that they might not have enough due diligence to address it or at least minimize the impact. 3) The worst ase scenario is when there is no safe pad to a tiny house on wheels for my family and me stay at that property and enjoy its private beach. Even if the house needs to go, property value is in land. 4) The entire Seattle area are at risk of earthquakes and taunamis. If the overdue Cascadia earthquake (9+ points) happens, not many buildings even on piles or on a flat surface would withstand it.

By the way, as to the high end comment, what I meant it is not a typical rustic cabin you’d expect to see in that remote area. The ceilings are high, 12 feet or more. Wooden beams. Water filtration system. Heating. Good quality windows. It was likely planned as a nice retirement home.

Olia, can you actually enjoy the private beach at that lot? The real estate ad states "The property may be subject to a Tidelands lease." I'm not from Washington, but that suggests to me that the state has leased the tidelands in front of that house out to an oyster farm. This oyster farm is not going to want you and your family mucking around by its oyster beds.

Did Mr. Insurance Agent quote you a price for landslide insurance? The article below notes that home owners in high-risk areas could pay $12,000 or more a year. Talk to people in Florida about what they are paying for their hurricane and flood insurance policies after Hurricane Ian. I'm on a blog with a number of them and the screaming level about the price is intense, and many are going without.

Anyone who is required to sign a "Landslide Hazard Covenant" (link attached below) because their property is in a "landslide hazard area" is going to do their due diligence and try to minimize or avoid any landslide. Don't kid yourself.

https://assurance.com/home-insurance/what-is-landslide-insurance/

https://dms.masoncountywa.gov/LR/DocView.aspx?id=537513&dbid=0&repo=Mason

For $280,000 you can take a metric sh*t-ton of beach vacations, and not have to pay any property taxes or spend all your free time talking to contractors.

The previous owners leased tidelands to the farm. Breaking the lease would also be important.

Its a murky not very nice looking beach from what I saw in the pictures. The view is gorgeous, but, the beach access is not.

Olia, if you haven't, you should read through the permitting history of the property. There were landslides in 1997 and 2015 on the property among other things, including lawsuit with the neighbors.

https://dms.masoncountywa.gov/LR/Browse.aspx?id=327905&dbid=0&repo=Mason

@HU-910663146, this is very helpful! Thanks so much!

"Our first recommendation is to not build on this property." (Page 2 of 4)

David Strong

Engineering Geologist

8/24/15

William and Linda Roberge were warned 9 years ago. Highlight: GEO BLD2015-00640 Site Assessment

I would listen to the words of an engineering geologist over anyone else. They know more than a contractor. You would not go to a podiatrist for open heart surgery …. You would go see a cardiologist… someone who knows everything about your heart. There are beautiful views all over the world.

1. You should double check that idea of a tiny house on wheels. An article that I saw said tiny houses with wheels are only allowed to be parked temporarily in Washington, as they are considered an RV travel trailer. The article (I couldn't access the entire article) also noted that local building restrictions may forbid also. I assume your plan is to roll up just for weekends?

Here's what I bet will happen. Once the house sells and is under private ownership, the neighbor and the Mason county building department are going to want that eyesore gone ASAP, as it is an unsafe building. This will cost a lot and entail a lot of engineering reports. The previous owners tried doing unpermitted work and got slapped with Stop Work orders along the way. The neighbor engaged an attorney. You will be under a lot more scruntiny this time around.

2. Thinking that you can somehow break the oyster lease is asking for a lawsuit. The oyster farm folks have invested a lot of time and money into their operation. They are not going to be bullied off by you.

If your remediation efforts trigger a "mass wasting event", you will also be looking at lawsuits from your neighbor and the oyster farm.

3. Joseph, you should have quoted from the paragraph above your comment too:

"Construction on an old landslide debris mass is risky. While the slide mass appears to be stable and does not give the appearance of recent movement, there is always the risk that the slide mass can be remobilized. In the event the slide mass became remobilized, there is no assurance that headward migration of the slump scarp would not continue to or beyond the west property line. It is possible that the entire property could become involved in a mass wasting event."

That comment by an Engineering Geologist was written in August 2015--obviously before the most recent landslide (1997, 2015, and ?). Your property is located on an old landslide debris mass.

3. High ceilings as a nice selling point of the property? Seriously? Are we looking at the same pictures of what I assume is aluminum colored insulation covering the ceiling? What exactly is underneath? Has anyone with an engineering background as well as anyone from the County told you that the structure can and will be permitted to be saved?

Perhaps you think you have it all figured out or you just enjoy playing with us here. The former owners thought they had it all figured out also.

Hi all, thank you so much for all your thoughtful advice, ideas, and due diligence. This project definitely has a lot of red flags and no-go for me at this point. The top concern is the landslide hazard and history of slides in the past 30 years. Safety of my family is top priority. The second, liability that comes with the ownership of property on a moving slope. There are so many other points you brought up. I wanted to stress test this project before committing to feasibility study and your inputs helped me a lot. BIG THANK YOU!

Olia, if you want to keep this thread from continuing to grow, you can update the original post with your decision.

I think you made a great decision. Your family could have been in grave danger if you purchased that house. Landslides dont give a lot of warning, if you are all in bed sleeping. The house isnt all that nice anyway, and neither is the beach. The view, I agree is spectacular, but, definitely not worth anyones life.