If HTF = hard to find, I don't find that it necessarily means expensive. I've found HTF seeds that cost only a couple of bucks for a load of seeds, and ETF (I suppose) that cost an arm and a leg for a few seeds. I think it depends on how popular it is, how hard to find it is, whether it yields a lot of seeds or only a few, how many seeds are included per packet, and where you are looking for it. In some places, the plants will produce a lot more seed than in others, and you can get a lot more for cheaper, and so on and so forth. As for trades, I've found that some people regard as special trades seeds that I find are easy to find and not all that special, while I've found listings that treat seeds I've been looking for for years like they're a bag of rice you can get at your corner store! In other words, I don't think there's anything written in stone as to which is which. It's just a matter of your experience in looking for it and what people consider HTF or rare. As for how much they can cost, well, let's just put it this way. After years of looking for tecophilaea seeds everywhere, I settled on paying $8 for a packet of 20 seeds at a place. And that's not bad compared to some other sources! BT Seeds in France, for example has lots of incredibly rare seeds, but, my goodness, are they ever expensive!!! Makes my tecophilaea seeds seem like a bargain!

Mine have been lost to galls mostly but I did almost lose Paul's Early Blush to being shaded and overrun by fast moving Charles Lawson. I was able to save him and split him into two and so now I have an extra just in case. You never know when something will happen. I've started double planting the HTF kinds. I used to move my roses around more, but after losing a few that I really loved, I am being very careful about it now. Quatre Saisons layed down on poor Louise Odier and she is just now bouncing back. I let my Reine Victoria get so tall that I didn't see Louise getting smothered.

Rochester, when I first saw your two pics, I thought Claude Monet, but I didn't post until I looked at some pics of RDC. I've had two Claude Monets for maybe 6 years, taken as cuttings from the SJHRG. Your first pic is typical of Claude's new blooms, the second one typical of more faded ones. Before I posted, I went to HMF and that RDC rose seemed to have really scalloped edges that your rose doesn't, which was why I suggested Claude. Holy moly Hoov, my Claudes have never ever been that intense in color! Are you sure you actually have Claude Monet? It's not just the intensity of the colors, but the specific form of the stripes that makes me wonder about the identity of your rose. BTW, it's a beautiful rose. I just don't think it's Claude Monet. I'm curious why most of the pics of RDC on HMF show such deeply scalloped edges (most from Europe and which presumably are actually RDC), and yet some of you still think that Roch's rose is RDC, and not Claude Monet. The CRL lists Claude Monet as a HT/F. Mine definitely bloom in clusters with short stems typical of floribundas. The blooms are pretty big though, hence the HT/F dilemma. Kinda the same deal with Kanegem and several others. Very interesting discussion! Susan

Another top choice which hasn't been mentioned is Whitman Farms, where plants are grown in root control bags. Otherwise, I'll agree with comments already made here. I ordered for the first time from Topiary Gardens last spring and was very happy with the plants and customer service. As others have mentioned, it's great (and refreshing) to have e-mails answered in a timely fashion and to be treated as a person and not a PITA! Every time I get the 20% off e-mail from Davidsan's I take another look at the website, but the base prices are so high, there's no way any quality of plant or packing is worth that much, even with the discount. Conifer Kingdom is great too, and also has good customer service and great selection (and good packing, too!)