FWIW, I used to use this wholegrain flatbread to make pizza;

I used the whole sheets, unbroken, placed close together and topped with pizza toppings of choice and baked - literally a cracker crust pizza - and very tasty.

Stores I shop stopped carrying them, or I'd still be doing it.

I think you'll be fine. You absolutely "deserved" a reward for your hard work. I note with one phrase of some irony and nothing more that today has also been a day of Thread Destructive Behavior too.

We could do a poll about what crust people prefer. I have the idea more people are skipping deep dish (thick crust) pizza and eating 'tavern style' (thin crust). It's always been my choice.

I found a nearby pizza truck that makes the most amazing sourdough pizza crust (he also makes pretty amazing sourdough bread). His crusts are between a thin and thick crust, which is what I like - enough thickness to enjoy the crust, but not so much that it overpowers everything. (Their business is the very smallest of small businesses - They only sell pizzas on one day a week, and you have to order them days in advance.)

Interestingly, I think of deep dish pizzas not as having a thick crust, but as having a deep crust, more like an actual pie.

I think the world would be such an easier place and people would be healthier both physically and mentally if we all embraced food neutrality. Labeling food as bad creates guilt and shame which leads to binging or purging or fad diets which continues a negative cycle of weight yo-yoing and does far more damage than just eating the pizza or what ever food your body craves. Stop labeling food as healthy, unhealthy or good and bad and you might be suprised how easily you might be able to achieve and most importantly maintain a healthy life.

https://peaceandnutrition.com/what-is-food-neutrality/#:~:text=Food%20neutrality%20is%20the%20idea,body%20weight%2C%20shape%20or%20size.

Oh so true, roarah!

I often think about the diet culture that my and my friends' mothers lived, and how it transferred to us, their children. Plump kids were often cruelly mocked when I was a kid, too, with no correction by the adults. I grew into disordered eating as a teen because of it.

I also think about this phrase: don't read 'beauty' magazines, they just make you feel ugly. Now, with the tsunami of 'beauty influencer' social media, it's even worse than those magazines, IMO.

Have you tried the cauliflower pizzas in the frozen section? Maybe Lily can share what she buys.

I love having California Kitchen Marguerite pizzas on hand.

You manage yourself well and Im sure you know what to do on a “ cheat” day.

Enjoy!

Exactly, TV. And I’d imagine all she’s doing is employing psychology to ultimately steer what food you’re eating and how much. If the psychology works then great. Pretending that all food is equal is fine as long as you end up gravitating to more of what is actually healthy.

We will order pizza about once a month. I really can't eat more than one piece. We do freeze leftovers and DH will often have it for lunch on a weekend.

We have made pizza crust in the KA mixer with the dough attachment. That is also good. Haven't done that in awhile.

Life is too short.....I could be hit by a truck tomorrow! I eat what I want when I want.

I am not one of those who wish for a long life just for its own sake. I would be miserable if I could never eat pizza at all. But I don't eat it often. I want to avoid diabetic amputations and blindness, and the other negative consequences that may afflict those who are not careful with their diabetes.

Very true. My SIL is now on kidney dialysis. I never understood how she could and did eat everything, like a whole piece of cake or pie. She felt it was okay since she took medication and was supposedly being monitored.

Yes, of course it's quite different when people are dealing with health conditions that are affected by diet.

It's a bit of apples to onions...

I like onions on my pizza, BTW 😀

I‘d imagine most people who go on diets are either dealing with health issues or trying to avoid them. People like me didn't get to where we are because of one slice of pizza a month. I ate healthy food but I ate a lot more than that. Seems like each time I went to the cardiologist he'd up a dose or add a new drug. Now in the span of just a few months my BMI is down over 6 points and I’m off of two medications with the doctor’s blessing. How? No, not by counting calories or going hungry. By eating HEALTHY food and mostly avoiding BAD.

I actually think many of the ailments that TV mentions are the result of a yo- yoing dieting normalized culture that promoted restricting “bad“ foods. I disbelieve that diabetes can be ”cured” by dieting even a diet labeled as “healthy“.

One example of how healthy vs bad food is incorrect is seen in the comment that implies that replacing a regular thin crustb pizza with a cauliflower crust would be healthier. Actually a cauliflower crust often has 16 grams of carbs vs 15 in a thin crust slice. Not a healthier choice for a diabetic really at all but actually a neutral or equal choice.

This is a wonderful pamphlet on how a weight neutral approach might be the healthiest way to manage type 2 diabetes. https://www.eatrightmn.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Alison-St.-Germain.4.pdf

Actually a cauliflower crust often has 16 grams of carbs vs 15 in a deep dish crust slice.

Just saying, we are missing some info here. Aside from the number of carbs, there are glycemic values. Cauliflower has a very low glycemic index which means it does not tend to spike blood glucose.

I disbelieve that diabetes can be ”cured” by dieting even a diet labeled as “healthy“.

However, type 2 diabetes can go into 'remission', where eating a proper diabetic diet can lower the HbA1C results to normal limits and sometimes at that point medication is no longer prescribed.

Actually a cauliflower crust often has 16 grams of carbs vs 15 in a thin crust slice.

Hey, your dietician told you not to look at labels. 😉

I’d need to see evidence that yo-yo dieting is worse than just a sustained bad diet. My cardiologist is firm in telling me that diet likely won’t cure my hypertension and get me off all drugs, but it certainly seems to be turning in the right direction.

I’d agree that at least for me a strict, restrictive diet would never be sustainable. I made baby back ribs last night and had Easter desserts. I’d also agree that any caloric food has at least some nutritive value, if for calories alone. But not all foods are the same, and all diets are not the same. A half century plus of trending speaks for itself.

"I actually think many of the ailments that TV mentions are the result of a yo- yoing dieting normalized culture that promoted restricting “bad“ foods. "

You seriously think that immune mediated diseases like Crohn's and celiac disease have to do with yo-yo dieting? You need to learn more about human physiology and the way the immune system works, and it's not about "good" or "bad" foods. Renal disease is usually caused by insults to the kidneys that can come from toxins, high blood pressure, obstruction, viral infections, uncontrolled diabetes, or an immune reaction -- notice there's nothing there about dieting or weight changes. And diabetes? Well, Type 1 diabetes is genetic inability to produce insulin, and Type 2 can come from having a chronically elevated blood glucose level and/or an inability to produce enough insulin, but nobody really knows why those thing happen in some people and not others.

" I disbelieve that diabetes can be ”cured” by dieting even a diet labeled as “healthy“. "

Good, because diabetes can't be cured - but nobody claimed that it could. It can be managed, with either insulin, or with diet and exercise to try and control the amount of glucose in the blood.

" Actually a cauliflower crust often has 16 grams of carbs vs 15 in a thin crust slice. Not a healthier choice for a diabetic really at all but actually a neutral or equal choice. "

If you're going to be making nutritional statements, you really should learn more about nutrition. Not all carbs are alike, and our bodies don't digest and metabolize all carbs the same way. Not only where the carbs come from (various vegetables, fruits, and grains) can make a difference, but also how they're processed, how they're cooked, and how they're eaten.

I am talking about balanced meals with in between snacks( treats) without placing labels on food or body types. Plate by plate vs calorie counting studies that show it is at least as effective if not more so for regulating lipids, cholesterol, BP and blood sugar and much easier to maintain. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10202519/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1751991822000687

" I’d need to see evidence that yo-yo dieting is worse than just a sustained bad diet. "

" While sustained reduction of calorie intake led to an improvement in lifespan when compared to mice that remained obese (no surprises here!), those animals that weight cycled (three times over their adult life) also lived significantly longer than the obese controls..... weight cycling, or yo-yo, dieting is better than no dieting at all, at least in mice! " https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6208150/ That, of course, only looked at lifespan, not physical health in general, and not anything about mental health (as it can't readily be assessed in mice). It also included mice fed just once daily, so it was a dietary routine more like intermittent fasting than a typical person's typical routine.

" I am talking about balanced meals with in between snacks( treats) without placing labels on food or body types. "

No, you were talking about how yo-yo dieting and labelling foods good or bad caused immune mediated, and kidney, diseases.

Tv I believe most diseases start in the gut and nothing messes up our gut more than yo yo dieting. Yo yo dieting also causes spikes in BP and blood sugars thus often contributing to kidney and heart failure.

A new,not infinitive study ,now hints to the dangers in IF diets https://newsroom.heart.org/news/8-hour-time-restricted-eating-linked-to-a-91-higher-risk-of-cardiovascular-death

a quick counter point to the study.

https://www.statnews.com/2024/03/19/intermittent-fasting-study-heart-risk/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20a%20study%20found%20that,brain%20glucose%20thinking%20about%20it.

That’s an eating schedule!!!

TV, studies on rats showed that restrictive diets lower heart and kidney outputs and cause greater insulin resistance after three cycles. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/yo-yo-dieting-may-raise-cardiometabolic-disease-risk#Results-and-possible-mechanisms

I know what IF is i bought it up because you mentioned it in the mouse study. And please refrain from telling me what I am saying, thank you.

" I believe most diseases start in the gut "

Keep trying.....I didn't talk about "most diseases", I specifically mentioned 4 diseases and you said you thought they were caused by yoyo dieting and restricting "bad" foods (" I actually think many of the ailments that TV mentions are the result of a yo- yoing dieting normalized culture that promoted restricting “bad“ foods. ") They're not "most diseases", but they're 4 I said can be managed well by making food choices to avoid "bad" food that make it harder to manage those diseases. I'll only tell you what you've said if you keep moving the goalposts. I'm not sure what intermittent fasting has to do with anything other than the way mice eat. I didn't say anything about it in people, other than most people don't eat that way.

I'd love to see any information that supports the idea that most diseases start in the gut. Seriously.

Here’s a problem with all this. There is no such diet as a ”yo-yo diet." Yo-yo dieting is dieting, making gains, falling off, dieting again whether following the same diet or another, rinse and repeat.

I know I didn't tell anyone anything new here. But what this means is that ANY diet that doesn't lead to sustainable and sustained gains is going to be part of yo-yo dieting. Whether you go with WW, Noom, Atkins, South Beach, Mediterranean, Paleo, Keto, you name it. And no, coming up with a new plan and calling it food neutrality doesn’t guarantee success. In the link to dietician Sheena, she’s dismissive of labeling foods good and bad, but goes on to talk about listening to your body to hear what it needs. This is a psychological approach to eventually eat, um, healthier? Maybe it’ll work better for some people than other diets, and if so that’s great! But for those it only works for temporarily, it’ll just be part of their yo-yo diet. It’s not exempt. And by a long shot it’s not the first diet to poo-poo the others and claim to be a better approach. They all do.

I listen to my body. It tells me I need pizza, cheesecake, cannoli and good chocolate. But I mostly don't pay it no mind excepting the occasional pizza.

Many RD’s believe or wish that no healthy individual ever start any diet for it leads to a toxic cycle of weight loss/ weight gain and a chronic pattern of dieting and health issues. If we adults could start to focus in schools and at home on a mindful ideology of food and weight neutrality maybe just maybe this cycle of diet related physical and emotional ill health could be broken. For those advised by their doctor this study is not about you. But maybe if we never started a diet in our earlier years we would not have needed one now. What we have been doing for the last century is clearly broken maybe it is time to stop feeling guilt and shame over a cookie or a slice of pizza. For me food and weight neutrality takes away shame and guilt nothing else. To me this is so much more of a positive message than ” the anti obesity campaign” message! https://www.news-medical.net/news/20240129/Study-highlights-the-negative-consequences-linked-to-yo-yo-dieting.aspx

https://www.webmd.com/diet/ss/slideshow-diet-yo-yo-diet-effect

tV it has been a prevalent field of study for over a decade lead by renown rheumatologists and immunologists through out the world. I added the ”i believe most diseases” part after you questioned my belief that your four ailments are linked to yo yo dieting.

Martin Kriegel ,at Yale, is a great place to start your research

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Martin-A-Kriegel-2032715972

a quick one about kidney disease connection. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10440536/#:~:text=The%20gut%20microbiota%20is%20a,%2Drelated%20toxicities%20%5B57%5D.

One more aptly named, All Disease begin in the gut, but it is specific to an autoimmune disease. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8452999/

An older one about the link with cancerhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4690201/

a crohn’s study https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0147957115000806

one on metabolic disorders’ link https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(23)00387-0/fulltext

And finally the link with celiac disease, https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4409/12/6/823#:~:text=Celiac%20disease%20(CD)%20is%20a,dysbiosis%20of%20the%20gut%20microbiota.

let me know if you want more TV. Hope you seriously wanted info ;) if you were not serious I can seriously say you appear “ hangry” maybe grab a slice of that great pizza you mentioned earlier ;)

I think many of our cultural beliefs and attitudes toward weight, food and dieting are deeply embedded. Who else remembers when it was common to repeat the saying 'you can never be too rich or too thin'?

I suspect many 'diets' can lead to health problems over time - like losing bone calcium and subsequent osteoporosis and dental issues. I became aware of that when listening to an elderly former ballerina with severe osteoporosis talk about how she was forbidden milk or anything considered fattening in her youth. Dancers are famously starved - I learned my disordered eating habits from my dancer sister.

And how can food be an addiction? We need to eat to live.

There's definitely a common attitude about being 'good' when it comes to eating, vs. 'bad', and that can lead to disordered eating - and mental health issues.

FWIW, I have a young cousin with mild autism who is severely jeopardizing her physical health because she is starving herself - and the starvation affects her mental state as well, causing psychosis. She's been in and out of hospitals and is frighteningly thin, to the point of resembling the prisoners of concentration camps. She just turned 18 too, which makes it harder for her parents to intervene now.

And there's another aspect to things we put in our bodies that can harm our health - I didn't see alcohol mentioned, and besides contributing to weight gain, it's linked to a number of diseases/conditions.

Avoiding labeling foods as 'good' or 'bad' is most important with children. It's quite common for adults to offer sweets to kids if they finish their meal, eat veggies, etc., yet what value is that teaching? I am also against giving kids candy as a reward for doing something, so I stick to non-food rewards.

There actually are bad foods, heavily processed foods certainly are..

carol I agree 100 percent to everything you just postedEd! Alcohol messes with our gut flora even in small amounts :(

I do know sugar cravings can certainly be intense and overeating sugar is detrimental to health, and can be an addiction for some, if not many people, since processed sugar is not something we need to live.

Re: cauliflower pizza...I get it at Blaze which is a chain. A famous in Philadelphia pizza recently moved a mile from my house with a very different kind of pizza. The name is Santucci's and the pizza is square with the sauce on top. We tried it once and it was okay but different and as we drive by it doesn't look as popular as the kinda pizza we eat in this area.

There is NO food we need to excess, and no singular food we need at all. Yet here we are with a huge portion of our population who can't limit themselves to necessary amounts. Think it's because they all WANT to overear? Or are there cravings and rewards going on in the mind, just like any other addiction?

Thanks for the research links

" Thanks for the research links "

Lots of correlation, but not causation. You can believe that causation exists if you wish, but I don't, and studies showing correlation don't convince me.

Re: Cauliflower pizza, it often is not lower carb because although it does contain cauliflower, they often use other starchy flours to get a more palatable texture, hence the higher than expected carb count. It may have a better nutritional profile for nutrients, but if carbs are a focus, the difference from a more traditional crust is negligible.

Again, carb foods differ. Caulflower has a very low glycemic index, and does not tend to spike blood glucose. So even if the carb count is equal, cauliflower is a much better choice for people with diabetes.

Lucille, y daughter is a type 1 diabetic. It was rather educational for us to watch how her blood glucose levels responded to carbs. We used to read about that the differences in carbs based on fiber, etc. She would eat beans, full of fiber, and her blood sugar would still spike. She was excited about the cauliflower crusts, thinking they would be a better option for her, since she also has celiac disease. She can eat them, but they use rice flour, or sometimes tapioca starch which negates the carb benefits. Cauliflower by itself is an excellent vegetable, but processed and turned into a crust, is not as great as it would be roasted by itself.

Of course, if other high glycemic stuff is mixed with the cauliflower, it changes the nature of what one is eating.

I went looking for cauliflower crusts a while back but didn’t love the labels. Recipes for homemade seem to use a ton of cauliflower and then cheese and egg for binder. I may try that.

Your title has my head spinning. In my world we deal with pre-teens who are hell bent. Their 'self destructive' behavior revolves around promiscuity/vaping/huffing/cutting/drug use. Maybe this should be added to the list of things Rich People Ruined from another post.

arcy_gw

Your title has my head spinning. In my world we deal with pre-teens who are hell bent. Their 'self destructive' behavior revolves around promiscuity/vaping/huffing/cutting/drug use. Maybe this should be added to the list of things Rich People Ruined from another post.

Arcy, I do recognize that an occasional pizza will not destroy me. However, those people with diabetes that routinely eat foods that spike their blood glucose are in danger of eventual horrible consequences, and their behavior is in fact self destructive, every bit as destructive as some of the behaviors you mention. For some people it is a slippery slope, so I am careful to be mindful that an occasional lapse is different from ignoring diabetic dietary constraints completely.

" Your title has my head spinning. In my world we deal with pre-teens who are hell bent. Their 'self destructive' behavior revolves around promiscuity/vaping/huffing/cutting/drug use. "

What's self destructive to one person, will not be self destructive to another - it's your post that has my head spinning. How rudely judgemental to decide what is self destructive to someone else! To some people, having a glass of wine or a buying a lottery ticket isn't self destructive, and to others might be. To some, vaping or smoking a joint isn't self destructive, and to others it is. One size never fits all.

" Recipes for homemade seem to use a ton of cauliflower and then cheese and egg for binder. "

Yeah - often making one's one can get around some of the quicker or cheaper things commercial products use instead.

" It was rather educational for us to watch how her blood glucose levels responded to carbs. "

I wore a continuous glucose monitor for 2 weeks, and it was fascinating (and oddly compelling) to watch my blood sugar change based on what I ate.

Reporting back: the pizza was wonderful, I relaxed and watched 'The Godfather' for the first time this year. However, I am still cleaning/decluttering. I think sometimes that the smaller your place is, that it is actually harder to declutter. So I decided to sell some clutter items on fb marketplace as well as giving some stuff away.

Several of the fb items were sold, no problem. But one set of tv tables which I had priced low, as a lot, and put 'firm price' on, caused a little aggravation. One woman sent a lowball offer, I said no. She kept on incrementally raising her offer well below the 'firm price'. I finally told her I had a special deal and sent an offer $20 higher than my original price and she squawked and squawked but finally left me alone. (They sold the next day to a lady who paid my asking price, showed up on time, and caused no aggravation at all).

The giveaways went well and were gratifying except for one. I knew a local woman who I had paid some months back to help me move a few things. She sells stuff, so I asked her if she would like several bags of salable items. She said yes and picked them up. Then, the next day I get a fb message from her. I couldn't imagine what it could be, all the stuff I gave her was salable and in good condition, just items that were not worth selling individually because most would sell for under $15-$20.

So I open the message and (I swear this is a true story) she says she had been paying on a no insurance ticket and had to make her last payment or they would put her in jail the next day and could I please send some money. (!) So much for trying to do a good deed.

So today will be my final day of the project. But, no more lapses for now; dinner will be a nice salad with a small bowl of blueberries for dessert. All's well that ends well.

I’m glad you enjoyed your pizza. Great that you are doing a bit of cleaning and rehoming. I enjoyed reading your stories, but can understand what a PITA those two people were to you. Nervy!

I read your initial post and looked around for some of the recipes I had developed for whole wheat mostly pizza dough.

We used to make a (mostly) whole wheat pizza dough and top it with cooked swiss chard, mushrooms and forgot what else. My anti-oxident pizza. Another one/dough we would use for a base for Thai Pizza.

Here are pics of the recipe directions. NOTE — I called the rye flour whole grain, but I mean just milled rye flour.

I have not made these for a while. I do not make pizza that often but now make an ”artisanal”style dough that rises over several days, and gives a very good crumb and with good flavor.

I developed a way of making it so I can avoid getting a table dusty with flour. Practically no knead, as well. I never punch the dough down, but instead stretch it and fold it over. it rises in an olive oil coated baggy. Supper easy.

Next I should try it wth some whole wheat and rye flour.

I would like to learn more about your healthful eating. I only know a little about glycemic index and being aware of that when cooking or choosing meals and ingredients.

PS I no longer put corn meal beneath the pizza dough, but use white sesame seeds. Healthier — calcium, fiber, and nutrients. Tastes great as well.

lucille, in Feb, when DD moved from her rental to her first home, she had a similar fb experience with an outdoor sofa. It sounded so aggravating, so she got plenty of mom sympathy, as do you!

Sorry if this is yucking anybody's yum, but I just don't see the point of cauliflower pizza crust - or any of the other cauliflower subs that have become so popular. All I can think of is the gas they must induce, not to mention the taste.

(And I do like cauliflower - as cauliflower, not pretending to be something else.)