McFadden hybrids...

palmfan

16 years ago

I have both of the original above described hybrids- The white one and the pinkish purple clone. Both are vigorous. The purple one suckers like crazy up to 6 feet away from the trunk! The white one is, to my senses, the better performer of the original two clones of this hybrid. I had a yellow leaved seedling from one of them, but i ewventually trashed it when it proved to be useless. I will attempt to cross Hibiscus cubensis ( Native to the New World Tropics and south Texas) with Lord Baltimore to see what I get. My Cuban Hibiscus is very vigorous, and curiously thorny like a rose! I am also interested in exotic hybrids, so I'll be checking this forum tomorrow!

poultryguy
Original Author

16 years ago

Hello Palmfan,
Odd, I had written a reply yesterday but it looks like it didn't process.

It's interesting that you were able to get a viable seedling from the F1 paramutabilis clones. Was this from an intended pollenation? Which was the pollen parent and which was the seed parent? For what I'm using the moscheuto group for, the suckering you mentioned with the paramutabilis x's would be perfect. At the moment I have Kopper King, Lord Baltimore, Plum Crazy and a bunch of seedling plants covering about 40' of run-off ditch. Some day I'll have the entire 500' ditch planted in hibiscus, which is why I'm so interested in hybrids and species I can cross. There's plenty of room for experimenting, lol.

Are you aware of anyone who has successfully cross pollenated H. cubensis with other species? What kind of results did they get?

Regards,
Dan

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Here's a piece on rootstocks written by Dr. Van Fleet, whom you may know from his rose hybrids... "Hybrid Stock for Rose Propagation" [Paper read before the American Rose Society by Dr. W. Van Fleet] But little effort has been made to ascertain the Rose stocks best suited for American use. Rose growers here mainly propagate cuttings, and “own root” Roses of all varieties that may be increased in that manner have, until very lately, been much preferred for culture both under glass and in the open. Recent successful commercial trials, however, have shown the advantage of grafting certain forcing Roses on stocks resistant to the “eel worm,” as well as to supply a root system of greater vigor than is inherent in the variety wanted. Then, too, a considerable number of the most desirable hardy Roses propagate very sparingly, if at all, by cuttings. The increase by root cuttings and clump division is slow and precarious, so that budding and grafting on congenial stocks remain the only practicable methods. We have hitherto accepted the stocks most approved by European growers as without question the most available, and for greenhouse commercial work the Manetti Rose of Hybrid China parentage, may always be most useful; but for outside planting both Manetti and Dog Brier have proven dismal failures under our climatic conditions. The latter does not thrive at all, and the former, while vigorous enough, suckers badly and ceases growing too early after dry summers to encourage late blooms in those varieties disposed to autumnal flowering. Manetti roots are very fibrous, forming a perfect mat in rich, moist soil; but they run shallow and are quickly affected by drought. They drink greedily soluble nourishment, but seem unable to extract much plant food from dry soil. The common experience with Roses worked on Manetti is that they are troublesome and short-lived, unless so planted as eventually to throw out an adequate root system of their own. The great majority of the imported budded Roses are discarded after blooming a season or two, and the remaining plants seldom develop into the strong, vigorous specimens we have a right to expect. These defects in European stocks have been long known, though but little effort has been made to find more useful substitutes. One nursery in the West claimed some years ago to use Mme. Plantier, a vigorous and very hardy Rose of much-mixed parentage, but of the Hybrid China type, with great success; but we have not heard much about it since. Our native Prairie Rose, Rosa setigera, has been used in an experimental way by the writer and others with much success, both as a stock for budding and for root grafting. It is exceedingly hardy, the foliage is resistant to most diseases, and the root system is strong and penetrates the soil deeply. Buds or grafts unite readily, and the union seems very permanent, but time has not tested the latter claim. All varieties tried grow well on this stock, which may be easily increased by seeds or cuttings. It is of a climbing habit, and the canes are not suitable for high budding for tree or standard effects. The roots seldom sucker, all the new growth starting from the crown. For high budding we have found nothing better than the Penzance Hybrid Sweetbriers, Rose Bradwardine, Amy Robsart, and Anne of Gierstein. They grow here more upright and vigorous than the type species, and are not subject to sun-scald like standard Manetti. Other hybrids of the Sweetbrier, with General Jacqueminot, and with various Hybrid Perpetuals, of our own raising, have the same characteristics. There is no suckering, and they are easily increased by cuttings. Lord Penzance and other Sweetbrier Hybrids, containing blood of the Persian Yellow class, should be avoided for this purpose. The canes are more slender, and propagation is less certain. The most suitable stocks for low or dwarf budding and root grafting appear to be hybrids of Rosa multiflora and R. Luciae, more widely known as R. Wichuraiana. Seedlings of Clothilde Soupert crossed with Crimson Rambler furnish the best example of the former class. Some are thornless, or nearly so, strong, rapid growers and deep rooters. They work very easily, and the buds or grafts soon make a firm union. They can be increased by cuttings of green and hard wood with the greatest facility. Crosses between Crimson Rambler and R. Wichuraiana, to use the name best known, are still more vigorous, but less upright in habit and quite thorny. They strike readily from cuttings, and also root as freely from the tips as a dewberry, when allowed to trail. The roots penetrate the soil deeply, and the bark works with the greatest ease when ready for budding. Crosses between R. Wichuraiana and China Roses sometimes possess great vigor. One plant two years from the seed, planted in poor, gravelly upland, threw a trailing cane 26 feet long last summer. They all seem very easy of propagation and are more upright and less thorny than R. Wichuraiana itself, which trails as flat as a melon vine. The roots of R. Wichuraiana and its hybrids go deep down in the soil, and if there is any moisture or fertility they will find it. They will thrive on the most barren slope when established and the plants look as if they would endure for all time. The long, smooth roots are admirable for grafting, and they can be worked as easily and certainly as apple roots if good wood is fitted to them. The grafts may be tied with twine or lightly waxed and packed in damp moss, and kept rather warm until union is effected. Neither Rosa multiflora nor R. Wichuraiana hybrids sucker, but buds start freely from the crown, which should be set rather deeply in budded plants. There is no trouble with suckering from the root grafts. Plants of the above hybrids grown from cuttings of good-sized wood are very manageable and would seem to be preferable to Manetti for most purposes. R. multiflora seedlings are being used to some extent by commercial Rose growers, and they seem to be growing in favor; but we think hybrids of the Rambler series would be more satisfactory. Helene, a very vigorous and almost thornless seedling of Crimson Rambler, is now in commerce, and looks as if it would answer the purpose admirably, though we have not tried it. While rather off the subject the writer would mention that Perle des Jardins, budded on an established plant of Cherokee Rose, Rosa laevigata, is giving splendid blooms of almost exhibition quality, in a cold, damp house where five years' effort with potted Perles on own roots and Manetti only resulted in a chance “bullhead” once or twice a year. Further trials will be made with Teas and Hybrid Teas on this stock. There is a growing conviction among propagators that the stock is as important as the scion, and grand commercial results have come from the proper selection of resistant and congenial stocks in the culture of grapes. plums and other fruits. The breeding of stocks by hybridization and selection may become as essential as the production of new varieties, if American Rose cul,ture is ever to reach its proper development in the horticultural world. From 'American Gardening', 15 Mar 1902, pp.168-9

palmfan

16 years ago

Dan,
I think that the seedling was just from a pod which has a seed or two in it, and not from an intended cross. I will be crossing the Cuban Hibiscus with lord Baltimore to see if I get an interesting hybrid. I will also cross lord Baltimore with Hibiscus dasycalyx, a federally endangered species from southeast Texas.
I am fascinated with the Cuban Hibiscus due ti its curious habit of going to sleep in the evening by pointing its leaf tips to the ground at a 90 degree angle.
I have thus far been unable to circumvent Hibiscus mutabilis 'rubrus's sterility. I weonder why it is so sterile. Heard it might be a mutabilis/moscheutos hybrid, but who knows? I DID once have a Snyder hybrid of mutabilis and moscheutos. It was a weedy, coarse plant that was NOT a "keeper".
Another interesting hibiscus is one I got from Plant Delights in North Carolina. I think it is named 'Davis Creek'. To me, it looks like it could be a coccineus/dasycalyx hybrid. It looks quite tropical when it blooms! It is an exquisite shade of pink! Stay in touch!
Palmfan

poultryguy
Original Author

16 years ago

For cryin out loud... you toss out more hybrids than I've seen! Lol. ;)

Seriously though, is there any particular reason why you haven't used those hybrids as a "first step" toward creating more useful, subsequent hybrids? I would think that breeding the F1's back to either parent, or amongst themselves, would produce more refined specimens with a greater purpose in the garden. I've seen some pretty raggedy F1's in my life but most of those crosses proved quite usefull in creating subsequent generations simply because they're the vehicle that transports new genes into an intended breeding program.

Most of my genetics experience is with poultry, with which, I've developed most of my plant breeding strategies. I've found that quite often, you only need to do a species cross once, then breed the sibling generations to eachother in order to bring out gene combinations that really stand out. My friend and I have been working with Gray Jungle fowl/ domestic chicken crosses. We're at the 4th generation of sibling-matings. There have been more than a dozen stable genes for color and pattern that were totally unknown to the chicken genome prior to this cross. Next year we're mating a few select later generation birds back to a domestic line to see if we can stabilize some of these new genes and get back more of the domestic traits like behavior and production. At any rate, I would think that an F1 x F1 would produce some segregation of positive traits from those hybrid hibuscus that you've been throwing out. Quite a few of those "new genes" that we look for are recessive in crosses to plants we're familiar with, so they won't even show up in the first cross.

As for H. mutabilis rubra, I discussed their situation with a coworker some years ago. He never mentioned it being an interspecies cross, although he did state that it was pollen sterile. If you use 'rubra' as the pod parent you should get viable seed from them. It could just be a ploidy issue.

Do you know where I may be able to get some of the Snyder hybrids? I was wondering whether that combination would work out. Since somebody else has already created it, there's no point in reinventing the wheel, lol. I would like to add it to my collection for further hybridizing experiments. Breaking down species barriers seems to be easier when you use species hybrids and long time domesticates.

I couldn't find any decent photos of cubensis but it does have some interesting qualities, save the spines that is. I'm really more interested at this point in time in getting those interesting flower shapes introduced in to the more hardy hibiscus, as well as some of the more tropical color schemes. The "old yeller" moscheutos hybrid is interesting but way too drab. It wouldn't even show up as noticable in my landscape. Bright yellows, true reds, maybe even blue and the multi-colored hues that the tropical hibiscus have would be real nice additions to the hardy hibiscus venue.

Regards,
Dan

palmfan

16 years ago

Hi Dan!
Sorry! I didn't know much about genetics when I tossed the moscheutos/mutabilis cross. As for the hybrid seedling, it simply failed to thrive. It was yellow and sickly. I suspect it was a bit too deficient in chlorophyll.
The source for my interspecific hybrids was originally Glasshouse Works for the Snyder hybrid, and Winterthur Gardens for the syriacus/paramutabilis white/red eye clone. My purple flowered clone was obtained from Home Depot as a mislabeled tropical hibiscus. Glasshouse Works carries both clones as of the last time I checked. Both are capable of suckering, although the purple/pink clone seems to sucker very profusely. I obtained Hibiscus cubensis from Woodlanders of South Carolina. They rate it to zone 7.
I have tried a variety of pollen on H. mutabilis 'rubrus' with no success. The seed pods always seem to abort before maturing. I wonder if anyone has succeeded in getting seed from this variety. No other hibiscus blooms over such a long season as this variety, although the syriacus/paramutabilis clones try to come close some years. Stay in touch!
Jim (Palmfan)

poultryguy
Original Author

16 years ago

Hello Jim,
I miss my H. mutabilis and H.m. rubra. We grew a ton of them when we lived in California, as a hedge. I was going to have my mother send me a bunch of cuttings from the plants I brought to her place a while back but with the oak wilt fungus issues, I didn't want to place our local native oaks at risk. I was able to get seed from rubra when pollenated late in the season with H. mutabilis spp. as the pollen parent. I did take about 500 H. syriacus seeds with me though, the mother plant reproduces true from seed very reliably. Should make for a good background breeding group.

The 'Lohengrin' (paramutabilis x syriacus) hybrid I got is white w/a red eye. The label states that it's suppose to be dark green leaved, yet the plant looks like a sickly yellow/green. I'm hoping that it just didn't like the pesticide treatment that it probably received before being shipped. It's been in the ground for about a week now and is showing some signs of greening up. I planted it close to the hibiscus that I'll be attempting to cross it with later on.

Most of my moscheutos group are 25 yards away and I only allow them to set seeds from intentional crosses. Keeps the guess work down, lol.

I want that purple/pink paramutabilis x clone! It can sucker all it wants, I've got the space, lol. Thanks for the list of sources. I checked out Georgia Bost's website and found several of her hybrids that I'd like to add to my collection for breeding. There are several of the Fleming Bros selections that I'd still like to get as well. These folks have done so much ground work and put so much of themselves in to getting these hibiscus plants bred to the level they're at it would be a shame not to attempt taking the breeding to the next level. McFadden's "bridge" crosses will hopefully help to make that all possible.

Take care,
Dan

palmfan

16 years ago

Dan,
Contact me directly and I may be able to help you!
Palmfan

poultryguy
Original Author

16 years ago

Email sent Jim...

Dan

palmfan

16 years ago

Sorry, Dan! I didn't get it! My computer may have blocked you, or something. I thought it was only blocking real estate info for my twin brother (unless it was first sent to Samoa, then forwarded on to my computer. Weird!)
Otherwise, I could send you cuttings of both varieties to you, even rooted ones, in all likelihood! I think it is neat that you got seed from 'Rubra' (also listed in the trade as 'Rubrus'. Stay in touch!
Palmfan ( Jim )

poultryguy
Original Author

16 years ago

Hello Jim,
Thank you for the offer. I'll be purchasing Tosca (purple/pink clone) from Woodlanders in a few weeks if they've still got it available. I already have Lohengrin (white w/red eye) in the ground. Woodlander's list is pretty long, so I'll probably pick up several other species while I'm shopping. In all likelyhood I won't be able to do much in the way of crosses for a few years until the plants are established. Which is fine... Even if none of the crosses work out I'll still have beautiful hibiscus to look at and enjoy.

It's funny, the biggest problems we had in CA with the mutabilis were bud-worms. They consumed the flower buds before they could open and quite often you'd find them inside the seed pods to. On the moscheutos, the bud worms made more than half the buds drop before they could open if you didn't spray the plants from bud set thru bloom. Here in MO we haven't had a single issue with budworms on any of our hibiscus (or geraniums for that matter), but the leaf eating insects turn the leaves in to swiss cheese if you're not watching out for them.

If you happen to have any seed available for the cubensis this year I would definitely be interested. We're in zone 5b according to the "old map", or zone 6 if you go by the new one. If I could get cubensis to bloom from seed started during winter then planted out in May, I'd like to try a few crosses with my moscheutos varieties to see what happens. I like the face-forward, overlapping petals of it as well as the color.

I'm glad to have met you Jim, it's been fun discussing hibiscus with you. I'll try sending you another email sometime tomorrow. It will have "poultryguy" in the email address... perhaps your email blocker will let it through this time.

Take care,
Dan

palmfan

16 years ago

Dear Dan,
I'll be glad to share some cubensis seed with you, if I get any, which I expect, and if we can contact each other privately since we can't post our addresses on line for everyone to see. I think I had tried to contact you by email, but was not given a chance to do so when I got to your member page.
As for 'Tosca' and 'Lohengrin', they will likely bloom for you in their first season if you get them this fall. All my stuff from Woodlanders has bloomed, or is going to, shortly! I have a white Hibiscus coccineus from them which is now in bud! My cubensis hibiscus is a large plant with a fat stem It is blooming daily, and has side branches which are also budding! It seems to need more heat than moscheutos and mutabilis to open, thus tends to open later in the morning than other varieties. My mutabilis 'plena' was brought directly from Samoa as a tiny cutting. It blooms in October.
Jim

poultryguy
Original Author

16 years ago

Hi Jim,
I sure hope the paramutabilis x's produce flowers this year... that would be awesome.

I just changed my settings so that members can access my email addy. I tried to send you another email this morning but it appears that it didn't get to you.

Just curious but have you noticed any insects going after your H. cubensis so far?

Dan

James Reilly

5 years ago

Hi Dan! Are you still out there in the world of hibiscus? Palmfan (Jim)

Thaddeus Carpenter

3 years ago

Hey, Palmfan, if you are still around there is an active hibiscus hybrid thread. https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1940307/rosa-sinensis-x-syriacus-hybrid-dwarfed

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